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Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by grishka on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:03PM (#28844394)
One thing I can't understand is why Adobe is so insistent on keeping Flash really actually dead by saying it's "unsupported" yet still keeping the sources to themselves. If they aren't gaining anything from it anyway, why can't they just open-source it? I mean they won't lose anything either by doing that, right? The community would fix all the bugs eventually. Probably quicker and better than Adobe, too.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by rsj_hn on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @05:14PM (#28845175)
My guess is that to Adobe, "flash" was a set of authoring tools (developer IDE and bespoke language) and a runtime that allows execution in the browser.

Adobe, as a company, sells authoring tools. It doesn't make money building runtimes and then giving them away. Even the money from licensing runtimes (Air) is insignificant. The runtime was just a necessary overhead due to inconsistent and poor native rendering capabilities in the browser - it existed solely to allow the development of powerful authoring tools.

So after browsers improved their native support and announced they are dropping support for the plugin, Adobe migrated to a new version of the authoring tools (Adobe Animate) that can compile to the legacy flash player runtime if needed, but also to html/js, or svg, or other targets.

They still want to sell more of the authoring tools. They don't particularly care about flash, and are probably happy to be rid of it.

What they don't want is someone else taking control over the runtime and then building rival authoring tools for it, opening it up to other authoring tools, or creating any kind of rival authoring eco-system.

It's like if you give away razors to sell your own blades, and then you come up with razor 2.0, you still don't want people taking the razor 1.0 and keeping it alive by selling their own blades for it, or even giving away their own blades for it, as then you would be in competition with yourself.

Whether these business concerns are justified or not, or whether our IP laws are too extreme, is a separate question. These aren't simple questions.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by cylon13 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:12PM (#28844494)
As someone who got into game development by making Flash games as a kid, I would love to see Flash open sourced. I don't think it's necessarily true to say they have nothing to lose by open-sourcing it though. Who knows how many private shared libraries are in there that are still required by other still-active Adobe software. And they're also probably not excited to give up rights to a massive pile of code which they could conceivably want to use in future projects.

In other words Flash likely isn't some isolated directory they can just zip and share to the world, and even if it is they might want to pick the bones later so why throw it away? (from their perspective)

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by grishka on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:27PM (#28844663)
Can relate. Flash literally changed my life. I wouldn't have been the person I am without it. And my career path would've definitely been very different. I wouldn't have known most of my friends without those VKontakte Flash apps, because the connections to most of the people I know right now can be traced back to someone from that Flash app developer community.

I'm somewhat hopeful that Ruffle will somehow drive its resurgence. Older versions of Flash (the authoring software) aren't that hard to find, and maybe in due time someone would even build an open-source reimplementation of that, too. The SWF format itself definitely won't ever be dead by any means.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by bsder on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:45PM (#28847658)
> As someone who got into game development by making Flash games as a kid, I would love to see Flash open sourced.

Ruffle is open source and works. See: https://ruffle.rs/

What is missing that Ruffle doesn't cover?

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by ixs on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @08:56AM (#28851489)
Last time I looked, ruffle did badger and similar videos well.

But as soon as there was any interactivity, e.g. random game from Kongregate (e.g. https://www.kongregate.com/games/moonkey/hexiom-connect or https://www.kongregate.com/games/kajika/planet-defender) ruffle just didn't do much other than hang at the loading screen.

My own personal use case for flash is to access baseboard management interfaces on servers. e.g. the Cisco UCS220B3 series uses a flash based interface. No dice with ruffle. It can do the login form and that's all there is.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by grishka on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @02:40PM (#28855755)
> My own personal use case for flash is to access baseboard management interfaces on servers. e.g. the Cisco UCS220B3 series uses a flash based interface. No dice with ruffle.

Networking is the one thing that can't be fully reproduced by using a wasm thing vs a browser plugin, requiring changes on the receiving side. Flash player did cross-origin security quite differently. When you sent the first request to a new origin, it would first fetch /crossdomain.xml from that domain to see if you're allowed to do that, and only then proceed. Browsers rely on the Access-Control-Allow-Origin header instead. Then there are sockets, for Flash it's mostly the same idea: you could specify an arbitrary host and TCP domain, then Flash player would connect to it itself and send the string "<policy-file-request/>". The server is supposed to respond with the contents of a crossdomain.xml and close the connection. Flash would then connect again and this time hand over the socket to your code. Websockets don't work anything like that; you get one by upgrading an existing HTTP connection, and you can't have that on an arbitrary port either, and there's mandatory encryption.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by grishka on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:51PM (#28847702)
ActionScript 3? Bitmap filters and blending modes? I tried throwing all the swf's I have laying around at it, and the older one is the more likely it will work. Some AS2 games are fully playable even.

It'll get there eventually of course as it's very much WIP. I wonder when will it stop calling itself a "flash player emulator" tho. It plays flash files. It's literally a flash player.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by bsder on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @11:44PM (#28848007)
> Bitmap filters and blending modes?

This, in particular, is limited by manpower and reverse engineering. Simply documenting what Flash actually does would be a huge help. Volunteers welcome.

Rendering flash requires that you be pixel compatible to something that is not documented anywhere. That requires someone to do a lot of experiments on something that barely runs anywhere anymore, document what they find, and then have someone convert that into code.

As for Actionscript 3, here is the tracking issue: https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle/issues/1368

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by slimsag on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:14PM (#28844523)
Flash being dead, and yet many enterprises still relying on it, opens the opportunity for Adobe to sell a pricey contract that allows an enterprise servicing company to provide Flash support.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by cgarvis on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:59PM (#28845012)
Just looked into this with CheerpX. You need the CheerpX license (15k/yr) and Flash license (25-50k/yr).
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by _fat_santa on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:32PM (#28847219)
So the top comment mentions ruffle.rs which is basically the same thing as CheerpX without the insane licensing fee (correct me if I'm wrong).

With that said why the hell would a company pay for this when there a good OSS alternative. Is it all about support and covering your ass from any lawsuits?

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by detaro on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:36PM (#28847240)
CheerpX is the actual Flash player virtualized. I haven't used it, but would expect that means something regarding reliability. And its customer segment probably doesn't bat an eye at that kind of pricing for something "properly supported", whatever that means for such a hack. Seriously, enterprise environments are often prepared to pay a lot for compatibility stuff/extended support/...

ruffle.rs is a reimplementation, and YMMV, but none of the things I tried playing with it worked properly (although afaik plenty other things do) and still in active development.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by kstrauser on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @06:16PM (#28845732)
They may not be legally able to. It's likely that Flash includes some 3rd party code that they've licensed under commercial terms from other vendors and which they can't release.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @07:18PM (#28846286)
This is usually the real answer to why things aren't open-sourced when they become deprecated.

The source code does sometimes "accidentally" leak, though.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by grishka on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @07:28PM (#28846357)
Can't they just rip out the 3rd party parts and let the community fill them in with already existing open-source alternatives?
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by kstrauser on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @07:44PM (#28846490)
It depends how big the missing piece is. First, let me be clear that I know nothing about Flash's internals. Everything I'm saying here is just as an example. But suppose Flash depended on a specific 3rd-party graphics engine, and a lot of Flash's own code was written to adapt and work around bugs in that code. Replacing it might mean either 1) making a clean graphics engine and rewriting a large part of Flash to work with it, or 2) implementing a bug-compatible engine.

May instead of a graphics engine, it's a proprietary video codec, or a bytecode interpreter, or a network stack, or a sound library.

Things like these are a big reason lots of projects aren't released as FOSS. Take something that looks simple on the outside, rip out its guts, and you're left with what exactly?

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by egypturnash on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @08:28PM (#28846799)
Definitely video codecs, at least:

Flash Video FLV files usually contain material encoded with codecs following the Sorenson Spark or VP6 video compression formats. As of 2010 public releases of Flash Player (collaboration between Adobe Systems and MainConcept) also support H.264 video and HE-AAC audio.[3] All of these compression formats are restricted by patents. - Wikipedia’s page on FLV, the video format that YouTube was built around.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by grishka on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:58PM (#28847745)
And these are definitely not a problem if ripped out because ffmpeg has them all. Source: I once wrote a (somewhat terrible) FLV player for an Android app that used libavcodec/libavformat.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by nightfly on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:25PM (#28844637)
Flash player is dead. Flash is still used for animation though, so they are still making money off it.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by codetrotter on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:43PM (#28844825)
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by cronix on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:39PM (#28844779)
> I mean they won't lose anything either by doing that, right?

Not directly, but if someone were to use some of that code that a company put significant resources into developing, in a product that made someone else money, most companies would probably have a hard time mentally justifying that.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by thayne on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @05:28PM (#28845304)
So license it as GPL, so that someone else would also have to make their source code public.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by kvark on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:09PM (#28844458)
Doesn't give them anything. Even adds some risks that people sue them for copyright infringement. E.g. from using GPL projects.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by grishka on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:17PM (#28844554)
> E.g. from using GPL projects.

Interesting — I just checked the standalone flash player I still have (and use sometimes), the "about" window doesn't list any free software. So either they aren't using any, or... But I find it unlikely that a company with this many lawyers would not read every letter of the license of every library they include in any of their projects.

Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by georgemcbay on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @05:34PM (#28845368)
I've worked with the Flash Player source code in the far off past (I worked for a company called Chumby which licensed Adobe's Flash Player to power apps running in a device similar to the modern Amazon Dash Look) and while you would see things in that codebase that make your head spin, improper use of GPL libraries was not one of them.
Re:Adobe uses DMCA to nuke project that keeps Flash alive, s... by mensetmanusman on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @06:04PM (#28845613)
Usually stems from lack of leadership. Different legal arms not knowing what the mission of the company is, etc.