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Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by azalemeth on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:12AM (#28825981)
Even though they really, really shouldn't. As you undoubtedly know, it's a terribly dirty fuel source that is destroying the planet. When I saw this headline, my gut reaction was actually "good -- I hope that makes other fuel sources more competitive". I then realised that I am not an economist, and that it would have the opposite effect -- increasing production.

One thing I'd love to see come out of COP26 is an internationally agreed minimum tariff per ton of CO2e, including electricity weighted by its means of production. We want coal to be very expensive to buy (and very cheap to sell).

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by dustintrex on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:07AM (#28826298)
It's going to have both effects simultaneously. Production is not going to increase very much overnight, because coal mines are not particularly elastic. However, most coal consumers are actually in the market for electricity, so high coal prices will encourage substitution with alternatives like solar.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by tialaramex on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:19AM (#28826700)
High electricity prices also eliminate the cost of (some) subsidy schemes for sustainable energy. Which almost can't help but encourage more such schemes.

The UK's CfDs (Contracts for Difference) pay schemes like wind farms a fixed price for their output, allowing projects to go out to market saying look based on our plans we're going to make so-and-so-many MWh of electricity, the UK promises to pay so-and-so-much £££ for that electricity, therefore lend us (much less) £££ to build it and we'll pay you a nice return. This means investors only need to care about whether your wind farm proposal actually makes electricity, not guess what the price of that electricity will be when it's sold.

Normally these schemes cost the government money. Say electricity is selling for £50 per MWh, and your wind farm's CfD specifies £80 per MWh, the government hands over £30 per MWh extra to make up the difference.

But, when prices sky rocket the government actually gets paid the difference. When electricity sells for £200 per MWh and your wind farm's CfD said £80 per MWh, you only get £80 per MWh as promised, the other £120 per MWh goes into the general fund to buy missiles or feed orphans or whatever.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by makomk on Monday October 11, 2021 @09:44AM (#28828210)
Part of the problem in the UK is that the amount of wind was at something like a 40-year low earlier this year, meaning that wind farms weren't producing that much at all. As the amount of renewable power increases and fossil fuels get phased out and become more expensive, we can expect high electricity prices to coincide more and more with times when renewables are producing very little power and low prices with times when they're producing lots of it. So even if CfD prices look good on paper compared to average electricity wholesale prices the government is still likely to lose a lot of money on the deal due to when that electricity is produced, which ultimately comes out of all our electricity bills.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by tialaramex on Monday October 11, 2021 @01:53PM (#28830983)
But for example this week electricity prices are very high, and yet it's somewhat windy. Something like 4GW plus or minus of wind power over the weekend. Not enough that the high price of gas doesn't dictate the market price of electricity, but enough that a clawback of £100 per MWh (not at all unlikely with current prices) would be something like £20M to the exchequer.

> we can expect high electricity prices to coincide more and more with times when renewables are producing very little power and low prices with times when they're producing lots of it.

Yes to some extent that's true, and we should expect demand management to play a big role in reducing the impact on ordinary households. Alec Watson (Technology Connections) did a video about how his home is set (in summer) to cool over night when power is cheap, so he wakes up in a cold but not yet uncomfortably so house, and during the day the cooling is off, so it gets warmer but unless the day is especially miserable it still isn't actually hot inside until the evening, at which point electricity is cheaper again and it begins cooling back down. This way he gets air-conditioning, in a climate where it's not entirely essential but certainly desirable, yet doesn't pay peak prices for it like his neighbours. Imagine if more people did that!

The UK could use a lot more storage. What it has is mostly black start capacity re-purposed as normal storage, but it is a bit short on non-picturesque mountains to modify. It also, of course, decided it didn't want to be part of the EU, where there's an entire continent of renewable energy sources to trade with, several hours difference in dawn time and considerable variation in weather - the UK is still connected to their grid with several Gigawatts of ties but now trades as an outsider.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by solotronics on Monday October 11, 2021 @09:55AM (#28828326)
How do you even heat a house with wind? Aren't most homes in the US and EU are heated with gas?
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by mjmahone17 on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:10AM (#28829220)
If a home has a heat pump (most AC systems), heating primarily with electricity isn’t that hard, at least in milder cold temperatures.

Most homes in the colder areas of the US heat with gas because the cost per joule of gas is a lot less than for the equivalent electricity. But a lot of homes can supply most their heat with electricity, and would if the economics made sense. And even more would build that capability if gas was 2x the cost per joule as electricity.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by tialaramex on Monday October 11, 2021 @01:18PM (#28830625)
Also even ignoring the direct price of the fuel, unlike for most things for heating it makes practical sense to burn gas in your house to make it hotter, not burn gas in a power station, then ship the power to your house and use that to make it hotter.

A modern home boiler is very efficient, because what you wanted was heat, which is exactly what you get by burning gas. The gas turbine at a power station has to do the same conversion (burn gas to make heat) but then also convert the heat into electricity, and that's before transport loss.

In the ideal world, the choice is between "Burn gas in your home" (bad, accelerates climate change) and "Use renewable electricity" (good, although maybe expensive depending on policy decisions). But for many people today there is no choice, resistive electrical heating would still burn gas in a power station and just cost them a lot more.

Heat pumps tilt the scales, if they're practical for you, it really is possible that a heat pump running on electricity that's actually produced by burning gas works out cheaper and more environmentally friendly than just burning the gas yourself. And of course a heat pump powered by wind is entirely practical and potentially quite cheap.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by pfdietz on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @05:23AM (#28837753)
> A modern home boiler is very efficient,

A gas-driven heat pump could be even more efficient; that is, it could deliver > 100% of the thermal energy content of the fuel to your home (in the form of low grade heat). This is a consequence of avoiding, at least partially, the large second law loss in a typical furnace where very hot flame transfers heat to rather cool air. Any time you see a large entropy generating process like that in a system it's an opportunity for improvement.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by tuyiown on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:29AM (#28826077)
> my gut reaction was actually "good -- I hope that makes other fuel sources more competitive". I then realised that I am not an economist, and that it would have the opposite effect -- increasing production.

Not a economist either, but those are not exclusive.

Also, this is not the case here, but ever lowering demands triggers structural prices increase at some point, due do scale cost reduction not working anymore, but you won't see investments in production either.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by piokoch on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:33AM (#28826100)
Welcome to the reality. People don't want to freeze in their houses. People will gladly listen to the talks how renewable energy sources are good for our planet, they will even go on "climate strike" marches... until temperature drops at home below 21 degrees.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by adrianN on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:10AM (#28826319)
In the reality I live in, there are alternatives to coal that are just as capable at heating your house but produce much less CO2.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by choeger on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:30AM (#28826755)
I don't think that heating with coal is a thing anymore. Power production is, though and that goes into electric cars or cooling buildings. Heating with electricity can be done quite efficiently via heat exchangers but is not used that often besides relatively new single-family homes.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by maccard on Monday October 11, 2021 @07:41AM (#28827226)
Depends on where you live. Poland is burning more coal than it was in the 90s, and a significant amount of that is still for home heating
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by rsj_hn on Monday October 11, 2021 @07:55AM (#28827325)
The world as a whole is burning more coal in 2020 than in 1990 (and 2020 was a big downyear because of covid).

But what's more surprising is that even in per-capita terms, global coal usage has increased since 1990.

However if you change your baseline year from 1990 to 2012, then global coal usage in absolute terms has declined, and will continue to decline over the long term even if there is a bump from the 2020 depressed levels (2020 is a terrible year to benchmark against).

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by mazurnification on Monday October 11, 2021 @09:32AM (#28828111)
"Poland is burning more coal than it was in the 90s"

Not true, coal usage[1]: 1990 -> 237Mt, 2016 -> 149Mt

As a tangent, I was shocked that Poland CO2 emission per capita is lower than one of Norway [2]: Norway 9.4t (2018), Poland 8.8t (2018)

[1] https://www.worldometers.info/coal/poland-coal/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by jikbd on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:22AM (#28826392)
They aren’t as cost effective, powerful, or as widely deployed.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by pjerem on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:49AM (#28826562)
That's exactly the point of creating a CO2e tax : making cleaner energies more cost effective by subsidizing them.

Renewable energies are cheap (they are basically "free"). Deploying them is expensive. But you only have to subsidize the cost of deployment and after that it's cheaper for everyone.

It's the same thing with insulation : it's expensive, but once it's done correctly, you can basically heat your entire house with only the sun (if it's there) or really low energy consumption.

We're just missing the political will. The transition is possible and would create jobs for the decades to come.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by roenxi on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:02AM (#28826621)
> Renewable energies are cheap (they are basically "free"). Deploying them is expensive.

That just sounds like a half-truth, otherwise people wouldn't always be so impassioned about subsidising renewable. They'd jest buy land and build honking great renewable plants.

Now the situation may have changed in the last decade or so, because the growth in renewables is very real. But it takes no political will to deploy cheap energy. There would be queues of bankers trying to invest if they thought they could undercut market producers and make good returns. Every greedy person on the planet (so somewhere in the region of 8 billion of them) would be happy to get in on the deal.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by adrianN on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:16AM (#28826681)
You can't just buy land and build wind turbines and solar panels. You need expensive permits and then spend a couple of years in court battling various citizen groups who don't like renewables anywhere near their homes. You can't even put solar panels on the roof of an apartment building and then sell the power to the tenants, regulation prevents it.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by cesarb on Monday October 11, 2021 @10:04AM (#28828411)
> You can't even put solar panels on the roof of an apartment building and then sell the power to the tenants, regulation prevents it.

At least in my country, AFAIK regulation explicitly allows for something like that: there's a net metering modality in which a group of consumers (for instance, a condominium) can split the credits from the net metering of a shared solar power plant. It's meant for precisely that scenario (power panels on the roof of an apartment building, each apartment has its own independent meter).

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by adrianN on Monday October 11, 2021 @10:17AM (#28828567)
Awesome. I hope Germany fixes the legislation around solar too.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by roenxi on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:50AM (#28826875)
Coal mines and power plants face the same challenges. They manage, somehow.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by formerly_proven on Monday October 11, 2021 @07:36AM (#28827187)
They manage because politics pushes these things through while creating new regulations for renewables.

E.g. in Germany one of the chancellor candidates was state MP and personally & illegally forced expansion of coal strip mining while enacting new rules making wind power essentially impossible in his state.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by adrianN on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:52AM (#28826887)
They manage mostly by being older than these regulations.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by vkou on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:41AM (#28826505)
Coal isn't cost effective if you price in the full costs of using it. As long as someone else will pay them for you, yes, it's very cost effective.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by Lutger on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:02AM (#28826265)
A lot of people are also willing to invest in better isolation and sustainable ways of heating their homes.

Meaningful action does not require us freezing in our houses, not yet.

But you have a point, which is exactly why survival of our societies should not be a choice on the consumerist menu. The government, the justice system, the corporate world and finally the citizen should lead in the struggle to decarbonize the world, not the consumer.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by tonyedgecombe on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:14AM (#28826349)
> The government, the justice system, the corporate world and finally the citizen should lead in the struggle to decarbonize the world, not the consumer.

That always sounds like an excuse for doing nothing to me.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by TeMPOraL on Monday October 11, 2021 @08:50AM (#28827747)
It's the reverse: it's pushing this responsibility to individual consumers that's the scam here. This shifts the blame to actors that cannot really do anything meaningful about the problem, and as a result diffuses it so that people who can do something don't have to.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by tonyedgecombe on Monday October 11, 2021 @11:36AM (#28829525)
You need pioneers, people who show it is possible to live a good life without destroying the planet. You won't ever convince the majority to change their ways without it.

Blaming the big bad corporations whilst we continue to consume their crap is a cop out. We've been doing that for decades now and nothing much has changed.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by TeMPOraL on Monday October 11, 2021 @12:51PM (#28830326)
> You need pioneers, people who show it is possible to live a good life without destroying the planet.

The thing is, it isn't. People aren't islands. Our societies, our economies, are structured in a way that make it really hard to keep your impact on the environment low. It's hard to give up on a car in a car-oriented town or country. It's hard to give up on plastic where every single thing you buy has some in it. It's hard to give up on meat when it's the most cost-effective form of nutrition you have available. And then, when you add up all those sacrifices - the result is not living a good life. It's mortification on principle. It's not something you can reasonably expect everyone to follow.

(At a risk of bringing religion into the topic - Jesus has said, "If you want to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."[0], and yet almost no Christian in history ever actually did that. No, these words are used as comfort for those already poor - an explanation, not a plan for life. Environmental self-sacrifice, which doesn't have a mainstream belief system backing it, can hardly be expected to fare better.)

Add to that, most people have no fucking clue what is or isn't destroying the planet. Hell, I consider myself somewhat broadly educated, striving for evidence-based, rational thinking, and I still admit I only have vague idea. There are some obvious things one can do, like "don't fly if you can avoid it", "don't use a car[1] if you can avoid it". Then there are plenty of wrong ideas, like "always unplug your chargers" (negligible gain for significant "I've made an effort" cost) or "use reusable bags instead of single-use plastic ones" (actually plastic bags come way ahead environmentally). Most other changes popular articles list tend to be hard to evaluate - they may or may not help, depending on various second-order effects and proper accounting of impact across product/behavior lifetime, which is often nearly impossible to do.

And all of that - all of that - relies on almost everyone making those same sacrifices simultaneously[2], so the effect is noticeable, all while people not making the sacrifice are visibly better off[3]. Meanwhile, corporations and governments are the ones making the most impact[4], and importantly, they hold the biggest levers. A single law, or a single contract change, can make much more impact than thousands or millions of people abandoning everything and moving to live in the woods as hunter-gatherers.

The way I see it, trying to convince everyone to make personal sacrifices is a fool's errand, and insisting on this as a solution is sabotaging our future. This is a systemic problem, we need systemic solutions.

--

[0] - Matthew 19:21

[1] - I say "use", not "own", because if you're just using taxis to do the same trips that you would with a car, you're hardly achieving anything.

[2] - And continuously, as the market will keep adapting to people's preferences, offering new goods and services ruining the planet.

[3] - I'll just defer to "Meditations on Moloch" on that point. It's an obligatory intro reading for any discussion about any of the world problems - because underneath, they're all just aspect of the same issues with human coordination. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/.

[4] - As a random example, try stacking up household water or energy use, or greenhouse emissions, against business and industrial ones.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @06:22AM (#28850405)
>The thing is, it isn't. People aren't islands. Our societies, our economies, are structured in a way that make it really hard to keep your impact on the environment low. It's hard to give up on a car in a car-oriented town or country. It's hard to give up on plastic where every single thing you buy has some in it. It's hard to give up on meat when it's the most cost-effective form of nutrition you have available. And then, when you add up all those sacrifices - the result is not living a good life. It's mortification on principle. It's not something you can reasonably expect everyone to follow.

Yet my grandparents led a low impact lifestyle without even thinking about it.

This is more of the same. Excuses.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by bombcar on Monday October 11, 2021 @08:04AM (#28827382)
It's better than that, it's an excuse for doing nothing and blaming the other for nothing getting done.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by Lutger on Thursday October 21, 2021 @03:27AM (#28941428)
No. It's the other way around: shifting responsibility from government and corporation to the individual is an excuse for doing nothing and blaming you for nothing getting done. This is how recycling and the carbon footprint is invented - by the softdrink and fossil fuel industry. You have just fallen perfectly into their traps.

Just listen to the rhetoric that Shell uses: this is literally what they say.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by Lutger on Thursday October 21, 2021 @03:23AM (#28941402)
What one must do as a citizen is put pressure on the government.

And, as a consumer, one should also make climate friendly choices, but it's not the most important thing and it should not distract us from where the real difference is made.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by marcus_holmes on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:43AM (#28826520)
I never understand this point of view.

We decide what happens, collectively. We vote in governments, and we choose what products to buy. It needs to start with citizens because we're democratic.

The problem is that people's public speech doesn't match their behaviour. Carbon offsets for flights have been available for years. Despite ~75% of people saying "Climate Change is the biggest threat we face" [0] only 1-3% of passengers actually choose the carbon offset [1].

In startups, we know that people lie in surveys, and we need to measure their actual behaviour in order to correctly assess their actual feelings/intentions. From this, we can conclude that most people profess a public belief in climate change, but privately don't care and aren't willing to do anything about it. Companies are taking their cue from this: virtue-signal about changing the world, but don't actually do anything. Governments are likewise taking their cue from it: lots of conferences, lots of talk, no action.

We need citizens to stop driving in petrol-driven cars to marches where they protest about carbon emissions. To stop heating their homes with coal. To stop eating fish completely. To buy the carbon offsets, even if they're crap and not very effective. The mismatch between our public speech and our private behaviour is what's causing everyone else to do the same. It has to start with us, because if it doesn't it'll be ignored.

This attitude of "someone else has to take the first step" is what's causing our inaction. Stop blaming others for your footprint, and do something about it yourself.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/09/1...

[1] https://aviationbenefits.org/media/167226/fact-sheet_11_volu...

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by adrianN on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:33AM (#28826775)
No, shifting blame and asking for individual action is a well-known tactic from the corporate propaganda playbook. Consumers have neither the necessary information, nor the necessary time to individually weigh all the different factors they care about whenever they purchase something. Very few problems are solved by demanding individual action. Leaded gasoline wasn't phased out because people started driving to boutique fuel stations that offered unleaded. Acid rain wasn't stopped because people started buying power from boutique power plants that installed sulfur filters. Our problems with the ozone hole weren't fixed because people chose not to use refrigerators.

These problems are why we invented governments and central regulation. At the very least we need to internalize the cost of pollution.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by Lutger on Thursday October 21, 2021 @03:36AM (#28941487)
Excellent reasoning, but I strongly disagree with the conclusion. The gap between action and belief is exactly why we need collective action, not individual action.

There's a difference between us as a citizen, and as a consumer. The pandemic has shown perfectly that leaving everything up to 'individual freedom' will result in a mess.

> Stop blaming others for your footprint

Did you know the very idea of a footprint is invented by BP as a mechanism to shift responsibility and place blame on the consumer?

Personally I spend a large part of my income on reducing my footprint by the way, but I have no illusions that this is where the required change will come from. In the country where I live, merely being registered as a citizen, paying taxes and everything that is legally required, will have am unsustainable footprint - before I even begin to take a breath I have consumed my share.

What we need to do is hold the actors who are responsible accountable and make a mass collective change that is non-optional.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by Gravityloss on Monday October 11, 2021 @06:31AM (#28826762)
The whole point of organized anything is to have common laws for everyone. That's why there exist laws regarding waste, otherwise some people would just dump them to random places. Or why do we have referees in sports? Because the teams have agreed together that it's the best way to enforce the rules for all of them.

Pushing "just personal action" for climate issues is a known delay tactic.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by licebmi__at__ on Monday October 11, 2021 @10:20AM (#28828619)
I definitely disagree.

What I don't understand, when I assume good faith, is why people disregard calls for political action as lazy or waiting for "someone else to take the first step"; while also have certain actors pouring millions on lobbying and campaigns to downplay the effects of global warming, to understate the viability of green energies and lastly, on pushing the idea of consumer responsibility.

Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by rustnote on Monday October 11, 2021 @04:36AM (#28826121)
Coal isn't just for electricity, it usually rises and falls with the price of steel because it's needed for the process. Also has use in a bunch of other things like water filters.
Re:Coal Prices Rising Exponentially by aceazzameen on Monday October 11, 2021 @10:08AM (#28828452)
I thought water filters use charcoal, not coal.