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Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by ksec on Friday October 08, 2021 @04:58AM (#28797131)
This.

I dont understand how US got to to this point, having tech companies making morale judgement and law enforcement on pretty much every issue.

This is not being snark, troll or whatever you what to call it. I am genuinely curious. How? Why? Did we arrived here.

At one point you thought this is some thing that are amplified by social media, and they are a small minority. You ignore Social Media. Then you see this even on HN, or some other specific / niche forum. And someday you meet people in real life who actually believe in it. That company should do the right thing. And these people are suppose to be smart, from an educational or pay grade scale.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by sam0x17 on Friday October 08, 2021 @05:52AM (#28797415)
No one is advocating that Cloudflare should be the moral arbiter tasked with policing all sites on the internet, and what you are complaining about is actually the opposite of what is generally true on the internet today -- it is far, far too easy to take down a website with a frivolous or even completely fabricated DMCA claim. For cases like this where there is legitimate fraud going on, there is a well-established legal process to follow -- get law enforcement involved, get a warrant, require cloudflare to release information on that particular customer through the legal process, get ICANN to revoke the domain if you own the trademark, etc. It shouldn't be as easy as "send a quick email to cloudflare and the site goes down". This is by design -- only in extreme cases should stuff get taken down. Please stop trying to make it easier to censor the web.

Lets also not forget about fair use -- right now the TOS on Youtube and Twitch counts cases of legitimate fair use, like using a 10-20 second segment of a taylor swift song in a gaming montage, as an automatic DMCA strike. Slowly but surely they have eroded the definition of fair use to basically mean there is no such thing as fair use in practice. Complain about that shit instead?

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by ksec on Saturday October 09, 2021 @01:09AM (#28807212)
>No one is advocating that Cloudflare should be the moral arbiter tasked with policing all sites on the internet,

Except that is what I see both on and off the internet. That is why I raised the question. Especially where there is a distinction between Hosting provider and transit provider. It would be more appreciated in this case to be writing to the site's host and not Cloudflare. ( Unless it is hosted on Cloudflare workers then we would have argue it differently ) Or as OP have pointed to the different about banks. It is all about different layer of stack, which people often seems to lump it all together.

DMCA is completely separate issues. But I do agree DMCA is being misused a lot.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by hirako2000 on Friday October 08, 2021 @05:15AM (#28797206)
How? Attacks against companies not complying, through court is one type of attack, boycot, not to forget lobbying that endup having our representative legislate to make companies responsable. If you wonder how it got so far, I think the fact as individuals we don't care what isn't right, so long as we personally don't really get impacted.

Why? Because, money for the most part. If you can't see the money incentive then it's about control. And if you can't control yourself, compel those who can to do so, it's even cheaper.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by mschuster91 on Friday October 08, 2021 @05:07AM (#28797159)
> I dont understand how US got to to this point, having tech companies making morale judgement and law enforcement on pretty much every issue.

Because the institutions that should have handled these responsibilities got broken down intentionally due to "starve the beast" libertarian ideology. Congress is gridlocked and plagued with cronyism, corruption and obstructionism for decades, and the fact that FPTP leads to extreme polarization doesn't help either.

Regarding law enforcement, the problem is similar - the fact that police unions are so powerful that they can threaten democratically decided reform projects (e.g. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/08/03/how-police-uni...) is maddening in itself.

The end result is a weird form of anarchism - trial by public, one may call it IMO... in the absence of government regulation - no matter if due to incompetence, old age of those in decision-making power or bribery - individual actors simply do whatever they want (aka makes the most profit for them), unless the pressure of the public in form of protest campaigns reins them in a bit.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by fauigerzigerk on Friday October 08, 2021 @06:19AM (#28797585)
>Because the institutions that should have handled these responsibilities got broken down intentionally due to "starve the beast" libertarian ideology.

Historically, the position of liberal/libertarian free market advocates has been that protecting and enforcing property rights is a core responsibility of the state - one of very few core responsibilities.

You can probably find some fringe opinions that would question even this limited role of government, but I think you're going to find it very difficult to demonstrate that this is a significant political force.

Underfunding or general ineffectiveness of the judiciary and law enforcement can be a consequence of many political and organsiational failures. You can find it in many countries around the world that could never be called remotely libertarian.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by ksec on Friday October 08, 2021 @05:13AM (#28797197)
>The end result is a weird form of anarchism - trial by public,

Oh thank you. That makes lots of sense.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by robertlagrant on Friday October 08, 2021 @06:23AM (#28797616)
> Because the institutions that should have handled these responsibilities got broken down intentionally due to "starve the beast" libertarian ideology. Congress is gridlocked and plagued with cronyism, corruption and obstructionism for decades

Libertarian ideology famously pro-cronyism, corruption and obstructionism?

:)

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by Peritract on Friday October 08, 2021 @07:54AM (#28798192)
Yes.

If a stated principle conflicts with common behaviour, then you focus on the behaviour. People/organisations aren't incorrupt just because they claim to be.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by robertlagrant on Sunday October 10, 2021 @12:11PM (#28819546)
Or you're just incorrect. People "starving the beast" aren't generally the cronies. The cronies like the beast. They are part of the beast.
Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by Peritract on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @07:34AM (#28838486)
"Starve the beast" is an American conservative slogan and strategy.

American conservative politics is absolutely ridden with corruption, obstructionism, and cronyism.

Again, just because someone claims that they are incorruptible and only looking out for your best interests, it doesn't mean they actually are.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by robertlagrant on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:33AM (#28877502)
Conservative isn't the same as libertarian. Libertarians vote for Conservatives because they're the closest thing they've got, to my understanding.

If they have a choice between people who overtly want to move more power to the state, and those who say they don't but sometimes do, they're going to pick the latter.

Re:Cloudflare doesn’t have to cut off copyright-infringing w... by bananabreakfast on Friday October 08, 2021 @05:06PM (#28804200)
You seem very confused on the basic concept of morality.

It used to be perfectly legal for companies to openly refuse to hire or serve black people, or even let them in the building.

Many people felt this was morally wrong, even though it was legal. And now we're talking about something that is illegal.

If your company freely does business with a company like this, would you really be surprised and shocked that people would also judge you for doing for business with them?

Wouldn't you expect a company to do the right thing and refuse to work with openly racist and/or criminal companies?

If a newspaper was printing false ads from a person impersonating a company and committing fraud, wouldn't you expect them to stop printing the ads?