News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by taurath on Monday October 04, 2021 @02:37AM (#28743748)
Hit the nail on the head there. It’s impossible to actually get what was the damn promise of Facebook to begin with, and instead everyone gets practically drugged with crap because it makes Mark more money.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by GekkePrutser on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:47AM (#28745129)
Facebook was actually pretty good when it just showed me my friends posts and nothing else. But when they moved to their 'timeline' and started fiddling with algorithms that try to decide what I want to see, they got it all wrong and it became a chore to wade through it all.

I don't understand how they think an algorithm can decide better what I want to see than me myself (by adding friend and blocking the ones that irritate me). In the end they lost me as a customer(or... Product :) ) altogether and I assume that's not their end-goal.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mLuby on Monday October 04, 2021 @09:43AM (#28746581)
> they think an algorithm can decide better what I want to see than me myself

I agree with your points, except I believe there is a limited role for algorithms that help users discover new things they might like but not know about. I prefer Spotify's approach, where there's a specific area of the app (a "Discover Weekly" playlist) that gets refreshed but not so often that it becomes a dopamine lever. Although that kind of recommendation algorithm can't seem to handle multifaceted "loves rap but also renaissance music" users' tastes very well yet—in that regard Pandora's separate stations were better.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by nobleach on Monday October 04, 2021 @10:20AM (#28747076)
I've never seen an algorithm better than Pandora's recommendations (back around 2011 when I used to listen daily). I found so much music that I still love to this day because of how "smart" that thing was/is.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mLuby on Monday October 04, 2021 @11:11AM (#28747715)
Agreed. That's probably because of just how much manual work went into it:

"Each song [representative of other songs in its group] is analyzed by a musician in a process that takes 20 to 30 minutes per song. Ten percent of songs are analyzed by more than one musician to ensure conformity with the in-house standards and statistical reliability." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Genome_Project

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by code_duck on Monday October 04, 2021 @12:29PM (#28749026)
YouTube’s used to be really excellent. I discovered so much good music when it seemed to work by automatically cueing songs or videos that other people who enjoyed the current video had enjoyed as well. They seemed to make a change a couple years ago to cue items I had previously watched instead. So now, instead of fresh and interesting items relevant to my tastes, it just plays things I’m already familiar with.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by b3morales on Monday October 04, 2021 @11:51AM (#28748306)
Pandora, if I'm remembering correctly, also has a feature that Spotify lacks, which is to say "I don't like this" for a piece that it chooses. Although I couldn't say how much that influenced its later choices, it feels better as a user to be able to convey it.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by nobleach on Monday October 04, 2021 @03:46PM (#28751197)
I know for several of my "stations", they kept trying to suggest Coldplay. I'd constantly give them the thumbs down as I didn't feel Coldplay matched what I was going for. It didn't seem to affect their later suggestions.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by IshKebab on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:38AM (#28745416)
Yeah Facebook was great back in 2006 when you only really had your friends on there.

I think the real downfall was not that they added the timeline, it's that it's impolite to not accept friend requests from e.g. coworkers or relatives that you know but don't really care about.

And then you end up with a news feed full of people you don't care about. I think by the time they added "unfollow" options everybody had moved to WhatsApp where conversations are between 15 people you know quite well rather than 300 people you met once.

I have no idea how they can fix that, or even how they could have prevented it. Google clearly foresaw that problem with their "circles" feature.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by vrc on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:45AM (#28745470)
Google+ was started in 2010, so Google didn’t “fore”see the problem as much as “see”. I think I banged into the 1500 (1600?) FB friend cap in 2008 or 2009 from the rampant friending, and already started reducing the number and openness of my posts once older and younger relatives started joining in 2006/7ish. The timeline redesign did pour gas on the fire, but the issue of unbridled friending was noticeable far sooner to users and observers.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by sbarre on Monday October 04, 2021 @09:23AM (#28746360)
> it's impolite to not accept friend requests from e.g. coworkers or relatives that you know but don't really care about.

This always confuses me. I feel like it's more impolite or disrespectful to be two-faced about this.

What's wrong with telling someone, politely, that you try to curate your social media and restrict it to personal friends and family?

If they get offended, is that not their fault? Should they not respect your boundaries?

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by roody15 on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:56AM (#28745556)
The end goal is money. To make money they sell influence. They control the narrative with these algorithms. My two cents
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Monday October 04, 2021 @11:13AM (#28747749)
> I don't understand how they think an algorithm can decide better what I want to see than me myself

Presumably, they don’t think they can decide what you want better than you can. But they think they can decide what will make you engage more, and they’re probably right. The damage is not accidental.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by johnchristopher on Monday October 04, 2021 @09:22AM (#28746357)
Micro blogging was super cool.

A random feed of micro blogging posts/status that is not random but heavily leans toward resharing led to outrage porn addiction.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by totetsu on Monday October 04, 2021 @10:40AM (#28747334)
For skim readers having troubles parsing the comment. It not about actual porn. Just things that are grotuitously outrageous.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by broeng on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:58AM (#28745183)
"You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!" - Eagles

;-)

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by barrenko on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:42AM (#28745912)
Same with Twitter.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by realusername on Monday October 04, 2021 @09:22AM (#28746352)
Twitter is just an hopeless platform really, the combination of commenting out of context (everything is out of context), low character count, lack of scoping & zero moderation (beside the most illegal stuff) is just a recipe for disaster, you even have external websites to enable you to read threads... Unlike Facebook, I'm not even sure Twitter is fixable.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by shafyy on Monday October 04, 2021 @09:05AM (#28746151)
On Twitter you can just switch off the algorithm and see all posts from the accounts you follow in chronological order.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by lambdasquirrel on Monday October 04, 2021 @04:16AM (#28744319)
I don’t know if I’d be cynical in that particular way. Maybe the real cynicism is more banal. FB was and always will be “viral.” When Zuck was in college, this pretty much amounted to stalking all your classmates (for those who remember when it was university students only). Zuck is getting towards middle age now. “News” is the new viral.

We want to believe that FB is a corporation and therefore must act with a certain economic logic, but within the bounds of what can be optimized for the bottom line, there can often be a huge amount of room for founder neuroses, fantasies, etc. (I mean cmon, Jeff Bezos literally just went to space. And if you like history, remember William Randolph Hearst?)

Drugging people with viral was always the main gig unto itself. It was the core neuroses. Money just happens to be the thing people “universally” care about in middle life, as opposed to university life, but that much is an outgrowth of the neuroses.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by robertlagrant on Monday October 04, 2021 @05:21AM (#28744710)
> Drugging people with viral was always the main gig unto itself

I don't think this is a useful way to summarise it. You could say any business' main gig is not making money if you want to (this bank isn't about making money; we just intrinsically love signing people up to financial services!) I don't know if it adds anything, and I think it does subtract.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by lambdasquirrel on Monday October 04, 2021 @11:05AM (#28747645)
There are some companies that are set up to make money. Most of the banks in existence exist to make money and they won’t hesitate to say so, and they will say that they want to make you money too.

Facebook was not created to make money. It came about from the era when people thought, just grow really big and figure out how to monetize later. It was not yet established that you could monetize something after making it big (which was a thing in the dot-com bust of 2001). It seems targeted advertising like a given today but back in 2011 (a decade ago, and not long after DoubleClick was bought by Google), this was still being established. It took a long, long time for FB to monetize.

To that end, you need to have been there in the thick of it. Back then it may have seen like it was fun and games. Playing silly “viral” “games” was a big chunk of how people were spending time, back in 2008.

But more than FB’s specific case, founder’s personas can be a bit unappreciated as the guiding hand in what happens with the company. We know that founder disagreements are a large percentage of startup failure. It really come down to the people, and their base impulses. Which is so trite and petty, but sometimes life just is.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by b3morales on Monday October 04, 2021 @11:58AM (#28748473)
Even if we grant that the business's focus is completely on making the next dollar, someone, or some cluster of someones, is deciding how best to go about that. Their interests, knowledge, and blind spots will absolutely affect what they choose as the steps to take to get the money.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mszcz on Monday October 04, 2021 @03:51AM (#28744194)
Aside from the mountains of odorless excrement I started seeing on facebook, this was the other reason I quit. It became unusable because once I scrolled past something it was next to impossible to find it again by either scrolling up or searching. Instead of seeing what people were up to I started seeing things they thought would keep me on the platform for as long as possible.

Looking at it now, at least to me, it seems obvious that the purpose of facebook has changed from "make money by showing people what their friends are up to" to "keep those dumb fucks as long as possible by whatever means possible to make as much fucking money as possible, everything else be dammed". And this is being generous with their beginning.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by worldsayshi on Monday October 04, 2021 @05:34AM (#28744759)
I'm curious if when most people say they "quit" Facebook they removed their account or if they just stopped using it. It feels like most people I know has stopped using it, except for messenger, but almost no-one has actually removed or closed down their account.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by jb1991 on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:47AM (#28745483)
I did a full closure of my account. I have not received any emails in about 18 months, when I closed it. I'm scared to even attempt to login to verify that it is actually closed, for fear that FB will somehow interpret that as a desire for the account to reopen, and do so, despite that I did close it fully (and did not merely "deactivate" it or whatever they call the other option that does not really close it).
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by scottious on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:34AM (#28745842)
You're lucky. I deactivated back in January and I think I did a "log in with facebook" button once and now facebook seems to have re-activated my account implicitly.

Also they send me click-baity emails like "John Doe has posted a status update!"

Heck, they've even started TEXTING me to lure me back.

I'm dreading having to log back in to try to figure out how to get them to stop trying to contact me.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by jb1991 on Monday October 04, 2021 @10:06AM (#28746875)
You say “deactivate“ but Facebook does differentiate between deactivation and actual closing of an account. So if you merely deactivated it, then that would explain why your account was not actually deleted and it reactivated it for you.

> The biggest difference between deactivating and deleting a Facebook account is that deactivating your Facebook account gives you the flexibility to return whenever you wish, while deleting your account is a permanent action.

From what I remember, reactivation of a deactivated account merely requires logging back in. Which sounds like you did exactly that.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by worldsayshi on Friday October 08, 2021 @06:20PM (#28804804)
I wonder if deactivating, deleting etc means different things depending on local laws. Like I would expect them to have to allow full deletion in EU?
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by jb1991 on Monday October 11, 2021 @03:05AM (#28825602)
They do allow full deletion everywhere. But you must explicitly select it. If you choose to “deactivate” that is not actually closing the account. It is a dark pattern.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by wedowhatwedo on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:40AM (#28745430)
I went through the process to delete my account but I still get emails from facebook occasionally about the account that they "deleted". I don't think it is possible to delete a facebook account.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mszcz on Monday October 04, 2021 @05:42AM (#28744814)
I didn't close the account. Once in a blue moon (once in a quater) I'll need to look up some shitty business's only online presence on facebook or contact someone on messenger.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by frodetb on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:32AM (#28745373)
I did close mine completely, early this January, and have since only occasionally been affected when encountering businesses like the ones you describe. However, I view those occasions as a chance to push back against that bad trend, reminding them that there are people willing to give them money that they simply won't reach. While the push is small and they probably have already accounted for this loss in their strategies, I think it is better than nothing.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mszcz on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:45AM (#28745473)
> reminding them

I hear you but I'm past that phase. "They" don't listen. It's not worth my time and energy being angry and going down that rabbit hole to "remind them" (my base anger level is high enough :P). Why? "They" don't have the capacity to listen. It's not in their interest to make their product better for you. You think you can't scroll back and see what you saw just a second ago because it's a really challenging technical problem? You think you can't set your home and work location in google Maps when you have location tracking disabled because it's a really complex problem?

No. They'll listen when they'll get their teeth kicked in by a regulator. I'm just glad that they consistently keep fucking up, even in the face of mounting negative sentiment.

Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mehdix on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:56AM (#28746054)
I, for one, naturally lost interest and stopped using it many years ago and deleted completey last year, along with Instagram and many other social platforms.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by KptMarchewa on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:34AM (#28745835)
You can "disable" the account and only messenger will still work. I've done that since my parents only use messenger.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by worldsayshi on Monday October 04, 2021 @10:54AM (#28747512)
Hmm, interesting. Not sure of the upside of that though? I assume that it wouldn't make much difference in how Facebook handles my data.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by rmrfrmrf on Monday October 04, 2021 @10:41AM (#28747360)
deactivating and/or closing your account just gives them more datapoints imo, and the number of people who do it is so small that it makes a great metric for fingerprinting.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by GekkePrutser on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:49AM (#28745135)
I did close mine. But yeah it happens a lot.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by bihaqo on Monday October 04, 2021 @04:33AM (#28744424)
Yes! I always wanted smart feeds to have "search in the posts you've seen" feature, why can't they just do it?
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mszcz on Monday October 04, 2021 @05:45AM (#28744827)
I'd guess that it's better for engagement for you to keep looking for it for minutes on end. Who knows, maybe you'll happen upon just the right, rage-inducing, useless post that might keep you on for longer.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by mlang23 on Monday October 04, 2021 @06:24AM (#28745012)
Well, same applies to YouTube. Most of the ads I get in the past 6 months are absolutely borderline scam.
Re:Facebook whistleblower says she wants to fix company, not... by noasaservice on Monday October 04, 2021 @08:59AM (#28746083)
Install ublock origin. No ads. Think of it as anti-malware for the web.