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Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by fleddr on Saturday October 02, 2021 @04:52PM (#28731971)
Microsoft just doesn't get it.

Windows is a fundamentally mediocre OS that is made great by means of its wide compatibility with software and hardware. It's not sexy but it kind of works.

Then they figured we now live in a mobile/touch world and went in that direction. But hardly anybody has a mobile Windows device, so it misses the target. To this day, store apps look like they're made for phones.

Windows used to be a system where you had the feeling its yours. General purpose computing. Do whatever you want. Increasingly, it feels like some hybrid cloud OS, where gradually you give up user control.

Windows 8, a UI clusterfuck, introduced a new design language. That was 2012. Almost a decade later, and not even in Windows 11, is the UI consistent. It's a facade. Why does it take a decade to skin a OS?

Windows 11 removes customization options whilst that is exactly what Windows is about.

Too many developers were switching to Mac, so now Linux is integrated. Not in itself a bad thing, don't get me wrong.

It seems they're running in every direction at once and just give up on each direction halfway through.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by vbezhenar on Saturday October 02, 2021 @05:33PM (#28732281)
Microsoft did not release anything worthy since Windows 2000. All their features were not needed. I'd easily pay $500/year for Windows 2000, just as it was, with support for modern hardware and other things needed to survive in modern Internet.

Now I'm not talking about internals. I'm sure that kernel was progressing all those years, for example. I'm talking about user-visible stuff.

Windows XP cartoon UI: terrible. Windows 10 UI: terrible. Good old Windows 2000 UI was just better in every way.

Windows shell? It was good in Windows 2000. Start was good. May be fast search would be a worthy feature to add, but that's about it. They redesign it every year, but it's not getting better.

Windows explorer? It was good in Windows 2000. They move buttons around, but that's not needed.

Control panel is 100x better than this settings nightmare UI.

They invent new UI frameworks every few years. That's not needed. WinAPI is good enough.

It won't happen. But they actually built a perfect OS and lost it. Forever, as corporations can't admit their mistakes. They could have improved upon it all this time, instead of trying to replace it.

With Nadella Microsoft is going downhill. Yes, they're doing things that looks interesting. Like integrating VM with Linux. That's cool. But they kind of gave up. Back in the time, they were actually pushing their own agenda. They had their own tech. Now they gave up and adapt old proven tech. Good for customers, but it's path to the end. If someone learned WSL, it's just one step to true Linux, why pay for Windows at all. Ditto about Edge. They built their own browser engine. How cool is that? Very few corporations were able to do so. And they gave up.

Microsoft lost his teethes. May be they just don't care about desktop anymore. Well, I don't care about Microsoft anymore.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by daptaq on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:22PM (#28732646)
It might just be nostalgia, but Windows 7 did look good. Be it 7, XP, 2000, etc. I get the feeling the main advantage is a consistent UI. So many apps try to mix both desktop and touch oriented interfaces, or create their own "style" by moving everything around, fluffing up the UI and choosing random colors to represent some brand. Come to think of it, windows was already doing that with their ribbon UI, but it wasn't that wide spread(?). The free software world has been having the same issue with GNOME 3 and their client side decoration initiative one the one side, and Electron apps on the other. The desktop is just a mess. It might be inevitable, a product of cross-platform support or too many developers (or designers) trying to influence something. Either way, it is a burden that contributes to the general lack of pleasure most modern computer systems provide (hence why I take refuge in Emacs).
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by gtirloni on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:08PM (#28732550)
> Microsoft did not release anything worthy since Windows 2000

Windows 98 was pretty decent. Everybody hated Windows Me.

Windows XP was pretty decent. Everybody hated Windows Vista.

Windows 7 was pretty decent. Everybody hated Windows 8.

Windows 10 is pretty decent. People are hating Windows 11.

And so on and so forth.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by wtallis on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:35PM (#28732714)
The pattern here seems to be that the only way Microsoft can produce a Windows release that will be rated as "pretty decent" is by first subjecting their users to several years of a release that lowers the bar (or a subsequent release that makes an earlier one seem better in hindsight). 98 appears to have been the end of Microsoft's ability to ship consecutive major versions that were unambiguously an all-around improvement.
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by hyperman1 on Sunday October 03, 2021 @03:43AM (#28735316)
Windows 2000 was an all around improvement. The UI of win95/98 with the kernel from NT. Now 20 years later we see places for decent improvements. It's just that microsoft either didn't do them,or added more antifeatures than features.
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by wtallis on Sunday October 03, 2021 @04:16AM (#28735445)
Windows 2000 was definitely an all-around improvement over NT4, but it wasn't marketed as a successor to 98. That was Windows ME, which in hindsight was a bad idea. Microsoft should have abandoned the 9x line after 98 SE and put all their resources into making the NT line suitable as a replacement for the entire customer base. But for some reason they decided they couldn't pull that off in time for Windows 2000, and postponed the unification of the product lines until XP.
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by keanebean86 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:48PM (#28732795)
Great summary but I remember a few nuances.

Windows ME had some legit quality of life improvements over 98. Although 98se had a few of them already.

Winxp SP2 was good. OG winxp had its issues.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by eps on Saturday October 02, 2021 @07:08PM (#28732938)
Windows 8.1 was pretty decent.

Windows 10 was a clusterfuck, from forced updates bricking machines to telemetry shoveled down everyone's throat to paid-for calculator to online accounts needed for local logins and all the way to its inbred UI. Total cluster, literally zero improvements to day-to-day use vs 8.1.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by bsanr2 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:56PM (#28733893)
This. I didn't hate 8. I used it for several years without much trouble, and almost immediately regreted upgrading from it. I know a lot of people were put off by 8's UX changes, but they weren't that bad, especially compared to everything in your face AND under the hood that changed for the worst in 10. We even got the start menu back by 8.1 (and I never had an issue with the start screen, save issues navigating it with a mouse that were corrected IIRC).

Honestly, I even miss the charms bar/gesture; it was easy to make a larg general swipe and then choose "shutdown" to shutdown.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by noxer on Sunday October 03, 2021 @04:32PM (#28740296)
literally every point about windows 10 is wrong.

>forced updates

can be turned off with a few clicks, no external tool required, no command line anything. its just shy hard enough that people who should not do it wont accidentally figure out how. If you dont know how you know what to google for, if not you are one of thous people who should not turn updates off.

>telemetry

can be turned off mostly but not so easy. however its an essential part of how a modern OS is maintained people dont like it and I get why but fixing up bugs from just user bug reports is simply not feasible anymore.

>paid-for calculator

no clue what that means

>online accounts needed for local logins

simply not true. Ive used every windows from 95 to 11 and not one needes an online account. to this day I dont have one and beside the obviously cloud based apps like onedrive I can use everything just fine.

>literally zero improvements to day-to-day use vs 8.1.

pointless statement as it depend on use-case. plenty people only use office and a browser sure the OS updates have no use for them.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by tweetle_beetle on Sunday October 03, 2021 @05:09PM (#28740527)
You're right, but equally you have to go out of your way to achieve that state. An everyday user with a fresh install will almost certainly end up with unrequested updates, telemetry and an online account for local login.

One thing missing in this discussion is DirectX. Windows 10 launched with a new version and tried to market itself as a gaming platform. People playing AAA games on PC is a sizeable market and this would've been a significant everyday upgrade for them.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by noxer on Sunday October 03, 2021 @05:42PM (#28740755)
Its intentional. If people could easily turn off updates they would do that and the next critical vulnerability would cause millions or billions of damage because it can infect and then use all those private PCs to attack other systems and no sys admin is around to fix stuff. It would be a disaster and very bad PR for MS.
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by skeeter2020 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:10PM (#28732564)
I don't necessarily agree with this chronology, but even if it's true it seems fair for me to hate something that is forced on me just because it's new after I've just previously been forced to use something that's at best "pretty decent".
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by beardyw on Sunday October 03, 2021 @05:17AM (#28735704)
Add in 3.11 and take away 10 and you have my (now ended) history with Windows.
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by skeeter2020 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:08PM (#28732551)
I feel that Windows 7 was the best for me as a developer. It had a decent user experience, modern UI without being crazy, good support for development tools and far more stable than earlier versions.

I wish I could still be using windows 7. sigh.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by noahtallen on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:27PM (#28732671)
I completely disagree about settings. The control panel has always been a disaster of information architecture, and any part of settings which still drops you into the control panel is similar. The big problem settings has is that it hides or removes features which used to be available. If Microsoft had just implemented those in settings, made the search faster, and removed every last bit of UI related to the control panel and weird dialogue menus which look like they haven’t been updated since XP, it would be significantly better.

Either way, I’m almost a little happy that windows is a disaster right now, because maybe more people will try Linux. :p

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by tambourine_man on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:21PM (#28732635)
>But they actually built a perfect OS and lost it.

Drive letters, registry…

They had a decent UI, reasonable kernel and popular API.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by vbezhenar on Sunday October 03, 2021 @07:17AM (#28736251)
Drive letters never caused much issues for me.

Registry is a good idea. They just had to iterate on it a little bit more, IMO. More data types (like enums), better interoperability with standard tools, built-in documentation, better UI, exposed backup/restore functions. Registry had great potential. It's better than flat /etc filesystem with miriads of configuration formats and clunky non-coherent documentation scattered all over. They did not realize this potential, unfortunately.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by tambourine_man on Sunday October 03, 2021 @09:58AM (#28737179)
> Drive letters never caused much issues for me.

It’s an inelegant relic from a very, very distant past. A poor design decision that QDOS copied from CP/M more than 40 years ago and that Windows users are made to deal with to this day.

The registry is a database where a folder should be. It’s such a bad idea that Microsoft doesn’t use it for its new apps since .NET

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by omegalulw on Tuesday October 05, 2021 @12:33AM (#28755525)
> Windows XP cartoon UI: terrible.

How dare you :P Windows UI peaked with XP.

Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by jjoonathan on Saturday October 02, 2021 @05:54PM (#28732428)
If they make desktop search suck a bit less I'll jump at Windows 11.
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by kibblesalad on Saturday October 02, 2021 @08:21PM (#28733407)
Everything (https://www.voidtools.com/) has essentially replaced my local and network share search option. It's a staggering difference, and Search in Windows 10 seems to be primarily designed to show you ad results with the occasional locally installed app thrown in around 50% of the time.
Re:Windows 11 review: An unnecessary replacement for Windows 10 by rk06 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @10:55PM (#28734148)
I use FilelocatorPro for search. It is very fast and effective.