The OSHA requirement will hang around, but people won't be freaking out about it because it will be normal. Within two years there will be a childhood COVID vaccine that is safe and effective and it will be required for school attendance like all the other shots.
All the people freaking out about the vaccine/mask requirements will have matured out of it or will find something else to be outraged about.
If I'm wrong, I will come back and say I was wrong. :-) I may lose an internet point or two.
I've recovered from COVID and stand against vaccine mandates.
My only stipulation is that if you say you had it, you need to have an antibody test to prove it, and if the test is negative, you need a vaccine.
Edit: Apparently this is new information to people: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...
Here you go: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scitranslmed.abi9915
>The vaccines offer better protection against variants than having had COVID and recovering.
The cost/benefit overall is much more complicated than this simple statement.
for example: how are you personally, materially harmed by taking the vaccine?
that would be the cost
The benefits:
Unknown increase in immunity against alpha strain
Unknown increase in immunity against variant strains
...
The Costs:
Chance of currently known adverse effects
Chance of unknown adverse effects specific to vaccination of people with prior immunity.
Some recent data [1] suggests that those with prior covid infection 13X lower chances or reinfection with delta than those with 2 vaccine doses. If this is accurate, it begs the question of how much benefit is gained by vaccination on top of existing immunity in comparison to to the rare but known side effects.
https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...
For some with naturally acquired immunity, Both costs and benefits are amazingly small!
If you are a healthy 18 year old (infection fatality 1/100,000)[1] w/o vaccine, plus have previously acquired immunity 13X better[2] than a vaccine 90+% effective, you are talking about about 1/ 10s of millions of chance of death or severe complications IF you are infected. This easily puts it in competition with the more serious vaccine complications.
Looking at just two aspects for this hypothetical individual, you could weigh
1/10 million chance of death with no booster vaccine shot VS 17/100,000 chance of bells palsy[3] and a 60% chance of fever, chills and headache.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0 https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download
>Currently available information is insufficient to determine a causal relationship with the vaccine
is all your evidence for a non-negligible cost this flimsy?
Similar nonzero observations have been made in other national studies with sufficiently large samples.[1]
Some countries have added additional content around it to the prescribing info [2].
Scientific consensus is that the risk is clearly is lower than covid.
Another rare but acknowledged side effect is mycarditis.
We can quibble about the rates but they do exist.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...
https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-s...
https://www.aappublications.org/news/2021/06/10/covid-vaccin...
An analysis looking at the trial data puts it at 14-18/100k higher than the expected baseline
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...
A analsys from the previously linked lancet study had a muck larger sample ~500k, but different collection methods and found smaller but nonzero results
>The age-standardised difference for the incidence compared with the background population was 41·5 (95% CI 11·7 to 71·4) for CoronaVac and 17·0 (−6·6 to 40·6) for BNT162b2, equivalent to an additional 4·8 cases per 100 000 people vaccinated for CoronaVac and 2·0 cases per 100 000 people vaccinated for BNT162b2.
Most if not all the vaccine trials saw small increases <1% in serious adverse events in the treatment arm
Once government gets power, it doesn't give it back.
We're pushing closer to 2 Americas, one with freedom and one with vaccine mandates
And between the left complaining about disenfranchisement and the right complaining about voter fraud the elected representative holds less legitimacy in the eyes of the "I didn't vote for them" minority in any given district.
Look at the crazy things totalitarian governments do to keep marginalized 10-30% religious and ethnic minorities from causing instability. A pissed off group of similar size in a western country that isn't willing to stoop that low is a civil unrest bomb waiting to go off.
And your argument is that by the time the onerous regulation becomes unnecessary everyone will be used to it.
Kind of like how the patriot act was there for so long we all just became numb to the constant surveillance, the nude airport screenings etc.
Occupational safety regulation is typically targeted towards employers, not employees. This mandate actually flies in the face of that standard and the OSHA charter.
EDIT: I'm pro seatbelt just in case that needed clarifying
I guess we have Elizabeth Dole to thank in part for near ubiquitous air bags and seatbelts.
I hate to think how many would die every year without them.
In the 1990s, more.
Except in the highest speed crashes frontal airbags are mostly redundant for belted in passengers (the first S in SRS is there for a reason), especially in this age of seatbelt pre-tensioners.
Side curtain airbags are far more helpful these days.
Yes I'm pro motorcycle helmet.
Maybe think of the healthcare professionals so burnt out and quitting because people are so indignant to get the shot and end up taking valuable hospital space. I’d take forcing these hold outs (and trampling on their fREeDoMs) to get the shot in exchange for a functioning national healthcare system any day.
You clearly don't value your liberty. (Maybe you don't even understand what it means, given your mockery.) Liberty refers to your right to govern yourself. If you would rather be governed by unelected administrative agencies, you'll be just fine in the new normal.
The inconvenient truth may be that as society becomes more interconnected, the less objective freedoms we have because we're trying to scale humanity and reap the collective benefits. Again, I'm completely ok with that because even in software, we have standards that software must abide by in order to interoperate efficiently. You can't just say "I don't want to conform the society's standards" yet reap the benefits the collective has provided.
I'm content with my world view, maybe it's you that needs to look outside of yourself and see what everyone is actually trying to do here (outside of this immediate situation, I mean the species as a whole).
What you're describing sounds like the happy path to techno-totalitarianism. You're only saying what you said before, that you'll be fine ("completely ok") with that outcome. Will you be content when you have to present digitally signed 'papers' to participate in what today we would consider normal functions of life? It sounds like the answer is 'yes', because you see it as the cost of 'scaling humanity', whatever that means.
People who use phrases such as "wearing a mask tramples on my freedom". These "freedoms" aren't actually freedoms. They're made up to mean "things I don't like" and in no codified law both common or contemporary.
I'm not describing anything other than the complete lack of perspective and, frankly, will for these people to operate in a society which needs their cooperation in order to function efficiently. These people are more like a virus than anything.
I already have to show physical "papers": passport, license, social security card, birth certificate, etc. Why should I be worried about "digital" papers? Again, completely delusional conspiracy that has no basis in reality.
As far as delusional conspiracy theories, what's your opinion on social credit systems, central bank digital currencies, and intra-national passports? Last I checked those are on the menu in China and coming to a democracy near you.
Unless you choose to live in the woods disconnected from everything and everyone, you are directly benefitting from the modern and civilized society we live in. If you want to continue participating in and benefitting from it, you'll need to cooperate from time to time. The government is giving you an easy out here - don't want the vaccine? Don't participate in a specific portion of societal life (working at a company with 100+ employees.) It's pretty simple.
Any argument that getting a free vaccine is even a sacrifice is a slap in the face of anyone who has died of a communicable disease or can't access a vaccine today.
I also can't help but recognize that the people who are always railing about any perceived loss of liberty do so very selectively. What have you done, and where have you spoken out about abortion rights being trampled on in Texas? Not saying that you can't choose your issues like everyone else does, but don't pretend that you are defending "liberty".
While the arguments against covid vaccine mandates are similar to pro abortion arguments, the similarities are only superficial. The arguments are slightly different because the circumstances are and this is where the comparison breaks down.
completely, 100% immunize? no.
Keep on goose stepping…
If everyone put themselves above society the world would be a much better place.
What do you mean by freedom? You live in a country that has laws that restrict your freedom already; this vague grasp that you make toward "freedom" from getting a vaccine is so strange and silly
And yes, if everyone who was unvaccinated went out today and got the vaccine, the COVID infection rate would drop precipitously.
I see a familiar pattern with sentiments like this: showing lots of hand-wringing over civil liberties, but seemingly no concern over all the people who have died and who have been incapacitated. Those people had a right to not be exposed to a deadly virus.
unless you count "not getting your way" as evidence that nobody is concerned
just consider the possibility that, that other people consider other things to be more harmful to individuals and society, and thus more important to prioritize when interests compete
Suicide killed 44,834 Americans in 2020.
Covid killed half a million Americans from March 2020 to March 2021.
Are you sure you're really as concerned about public health as you claim to be?
There is broad consensus that covid will turn into a cold/flu like illness once our bodies have built a strong enough immune response.
I agree with the consensus about Covid. I don't agree that means we won't have a permanent 'VaxPass' system in place serving as the camel's nose for a CCP-style social credit system based on health compliance. I wonder what you thought about the Patriot Act after 9/11 or Snowden's leaks? 20 years later would you say that all blew over?
Regardless of whatever metric you use to define “freedom” all of those countries rank higher than the US pre-Covid for “freedom”[1][2][3]. If your argument is that those countries are fundamentally “less-free” post-Covid due to public health measures, I don’t see the data to support that. To imply that all those countries will shift from the principles that drive them pre-Covid to a police-state post-Covid is very unlikely given the prior right?
As someone who’s lived in one of those countries and the US, I can say that the tendency of the US to argue over every small issue, even if it is overwhelmingly common sense and beneficial, takes away a lot of focus on the big issues that the country needs to solve.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
[2] https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table
[3] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-i...
Linking to pre-Covid sources is a bit like linking to a pre-Hiroshima encyclopedia entry about nuclear energy.
I guess I would look at what is actually practically limiting you living your best life; avoid too much extrapolation on the rapid societal changes that are certainly not limited to covid vaccine mandates. Our techno-capitalist-oligarchy social structure is changing everything.
> F**g Somewhere!
Or civil war. Also possible.
What are your reasons to refuse a vaccine? Weren't you vaccinated as a child for polio & chicken pox? Why is this vaccine a hill to die on? Thanks.
Not every anti-covid-vax person is anti-other-vax. The mRNA vaccine is novel. Many believe its long-term safety profile is TBD. They think comparing vaccines with decades of safety data to ones with months is apples to oranges. They may also believe that Covid is not very dangerous to their demographic and don't like the risk/benefit calculation. They may also not trust the pharmaceutical industry and its influence on global health policy. The indemnifications of liability may give them pause to accept all the risk of side-effects. The censorship of contrary opinions on media may also affect their willingness to believe everything they are being told about the safety, efficacy, and necessity of the vaccines.
"Anti-vax" has become a convenient political weapon. It's important to unpack what it means and who is using it and why.
> some believe mandates are illegal and constitute government tyranny
This isn't a vaccine mandate. You are free to choose to be tested or vaccinated. Do you feel being forced to make this choice is tyranny, if so how bad do things have to get before the good of society becomes more important than your personal choice?
What is the 'good of society' and who decides it? In a pluralistic society there is valid disagreement about which are the goods (plural) of society. It seems you don't agree.
I feel that forcing an uncomfortable nasal swab test is being used as a means of punishment, and not based on science. If it was just saliva I wouldn't feel that way.
We don’t allow people to make personal choices to commit murder, or to drive drunk, or even to drive at all without licenses.
You can drive without a license.
This makes as much sense as a family member I have who wont wear his seat belt. He admits that seat belts save lives and greatly improve safety, but won't wear his out of spite because "the government shouldn't force me to do it". Imagine deliberately choosing to amplify the danger of driving, every time you drive, purely on principle to "Oppose Tyranny."
1) If you want to get vaccinated, get vaccinated.
2) If you don’t, don’t.
3) If you go to the hospital with a COVID infection, your care is covered by insurance if you are vaccinated. If you are not, your care is not covered by insurance.
This allows people to make decisions about their bodies, while also fending off the two main arguments I see for why everyone should be vaccinated. Those arguments are:
1) Unvaccinated people are hosts for mutations which can break through vaccines. Since we are already going to be doing yearly updates to this vaccine a la flu vaccines, this is not a concern to those who want to be vaccinated as they will get fresh protection each year.
2) Hospital beds are being filled with COVID patients, thus blocking people with e.g. heart attacks, car crash injuries etc. from getting care. With my plan, the unvaccinated will be disincentivized to go to the hospital to get COVID care, thus freeing these beds up. Again, this respects personal choices.
But forcing people to do something to their body? Not cool with me. Also not logically consistent with being pro-choice, which most of my pro-mandate (anti-choice) friends are.
We need to get back to normal, continuing with our previous approach wasn't working, so we have to do something. This seems like a healthy compromise on personal choice and doing what's right for society. What would be a better balance?
The fact that this sentiment already exists in America (via private insurance and out-of-network costs) is absolutely abhorrent.
Citizenry should never be disincentivized from seeking out healthcare.
I am proposing a more direct penalty, which is only put into effect if:
1) you don’t get vaccinated
2) you get COVID
3) you get treatment at the hospital for COVID
The current penalty proposal (getting fired) happens at step 1. I do not agree with that.
In a socialized healthcare system, my penalty would be the same. Instead of your insurance company doling out the penalty (withholding payment), it would be your government, but the effect is the same.
I do not want to force people to do something they don’t want to do to their bodies, and I do not want others to suffer for the unvaccinated’s choices. Therefore, if you decide not to get vaccinated, you pay for your own healthcare if you go to the hospital for COVID treatment.
Personal choice comes with personal responsibility. But personal choice should still be allowed.
There are some other reasons, but those are purely related to political situation in my homeland.
This is not true. They got emergency authorization, but had to go through the same test phases as with normal authorization and will eventually get full authorization. This is not really different than in the USA and does not make it a 'test vaccine'.
Also I was vaccinated in the EU and I did not have to sign any papers or 'take full responsibility for any side effects' in any way, nor did anyone else I know that was vaccinated in the EU. This may be the case in your country (I'd be interested to know which country that is), but it is certainly not a EU wide requirement.
- I already had long covid (lasted 14 months), and don't want the vaccine to cause a relapse. It did exactly that to a family member who also had long covid, and she's still not better. It's just anecdotal but I've seen on longcovid forums multiple people claiming the vaccine CAUSED their longcovid.
- I don't believe CDC recommendation that increasing antibody titers through vaccination offers better protection against the virus than convalescent immunity through prior infection. Antibody titers are just one aspect of immunity and BCells make antibodies when exposed to a virus again. Actually I'd be worried about training my immune system with only one part of the virus, it's possible that would hurt my robust immunity against variants, not help it.
- CDC is dishonest with numbers by not tracking mild/non-hospitalized breakthrough cases. There is no reason not to track them. From the UK Gov on Page 12... 37 of 73 deaths from Delta variant are vaccinated: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... According to the CDC and media such numbers of deaths among vaccinated would be statistically impossible.
- FDA not approving an inactive virus vaccine is BS. It's a monumental failure of the US government if they want a high % of people vaccinated to only offer DNA/RNA vaccines that are nothing like traditional vaccines people receive as children. China's Sinopharm works at preventing death and is just inactive virus. If required to take a vaccine I'd travel to another country to take that. Actually I'd even pay $10k to have an inactive virus vaccine imported if it prevented me from being discriminated against.
- If there was such a thing as "misinformation" then it should be openly mocked, ridiculed and contested with facts. What's happening now with censorship is unprecedented - we even need a dedicated news site to keep track of it: https://reclaimthenet.org/ . Organizations like the EFF should be presenting legal challenges for many of these things but it seems like everyone has gotten on the "misinformation" bandwagon. Doing that will lead to authoritarianism. Health policy should not be political, but opposing forced medical procedures is a fundamental human right, no exceptions.
Also, since you mentioned Polio and chicken pox, I don't consider those the same because they are not RNA vaccines. All my issues with taking a covid vaxx would be solved if only the FDA approved Sinopharm/Sinovac so I could take an inactive virus vaccine. Instead I'm losing my job soon.
Also, the fda has a perfect track record for only approving safe treatments, so why worry?
Within one year there appears to be myocarditis at a rate of 16 COVID deaths per 1 myocarditis case. To my understanding this rare side effect appears to occur within be first two weeks post shot, while the body metabolizes the mRNA and other components of the vaccine. Myocarditis also occurs with some other viral infections, and is concerning though not as concerning as the effects of COVID.
After that time period, you have immune response to the spike components. If that is associated with long term side effects, one would anticipate similar immune responses after the virus itself.
I am aware there is a claim that everyone with the vaccine dies in two years, based on rodent studies.(rodents live 18 months). Beyond that I'm not sure what information is out there regarding longevity. I would be happy to review sources you may suggest.
Is that age stratified? E.g. in 18-29y/o males where myo/pericarditis risk is highest? With and w/o commodities would be helpful in the risk benefit calculus as well.
Do you have the numbers on the other side effects as well? Also do you have the myocarditis cases and other side effects past 1 year?
Just to be clear, I don't think everyone is going to die in a couple years.
I will say, however, you’ve been incredibly dismissive and condescending, at times even insulting throughout this entire thread, up and down the page, even as someone who is pro-vaccine, I wouldn’t consider you “safe”. So your offers comes off as more gaslighting than anything else.
Otherwise, my message is consistent. Vaccination is a civic duty and one that is good for society. We need to be vaccinated. If a person wishes to reach out to me, I do not judge them based on differences of opinions.
I appreciate honest dialogue, and again, I’m vaccinated and believe overall the medical community is a net positive for society, but you are neither being genuine nor non-judgmental. You’re so far in your own ideology and echo chamber that you don’t even realize how far apart you are from those who don’t see everything through the same lenses you do.
Regardless, thanks for the input, and have a good weekend.
Israel is already saying 4 shots (and more) will required [0] to participate in that society. Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are quasi-police states [1] and will probably mandate vaccination+boosters soon.
The writing on the wall is that the 'booster' is being repackaged as a 'series' of vaccines. The health authorities and pharma are going to modify and approve vaccines for endless mutations. Will these be independently tested? I don't expect so, despite using the novel mRNA platform. The end game is to treat Covid vaccines like annual (or semi-annual) flu vaccines. Moderna is already packaging both together [2]. Except flu vaccine is not mandated (yet). There is a LOT of money to be made in mandatory vaccine mandates. Think how easy it would be to grow rich if everyone had to use your products, you had no competition, and the government indemnified you against any responsibility for harm. It's hard to see how this stops. The pandemic is a gift for technocratic-authoritarians everywhere.
Here's a prediction. In a few years, if the people don't stand up against this, the pandemic will not be 'over' politically. Nominally 'free' Western governments will have become de facto CCP-style management firms. We will be required to comply with ongoing health directives from the central authorities for vaccination to prevent further restrictions. Our compliance will be monitored via digital passes (or onerous paper-work for the poor). Our employment and freedom of movement will depend on our compliance. Those who disagree and are foolish enough to say something will find themselves censored (for health disinformation) and fined (or imprisoned [3]). Traveling to see grandma without having gotten the latest booster will risk quarantine.
So, if you're pro-mandates, I invite you to come back in a couple of years and ridicule me and this warning if it's wrong (if it hasn't been scrubbed from the internet). I hope you're right! I wonder what you'll say if you're wrong? Maybe post your predictions for posterity.
[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/virus-czar-calls-to-begin-read... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/31/world/australia/new-zeala..., https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/01/austr... [2] https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/01/austr...