News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by dannyw on Sunday September 05, 2021 @12:24PM (#28425474)
This is ground breaking. The NSA made Juniper use a backdoored algorithm, and a foreign adversary hacked into Juniper and changed the backdoor key (essentially). That's surreal.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by indymike on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:37PM (#28426078)
> That's surreal.

No, that's expected behavior and will eventually happen approaching the limit of 100% of the time.

Even worse, a backdoor is often a greater security risk than normal authorization because the backdoor can often access all the data, not just a single user's data.

In short, if you are in government, do not ask for backdoors, if you are in the private sector do not make backdoors. Backdoors are a flawed idea that leads to very bad things for everyone (private sector losses hit government in the pocketbook, too).

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by cryptonector on Monday September 06, 2021 @11:38PM (#28440678)
Keep in mind that an attacker that can change source code can add a backdoor where there is none. Backdoors are dangerous because their keys can leak. In the case of Dual_EC a leak would have been particularly dangerous because the attack enabled by having the backdoor's key is passive, so not easily detected.

A backdoor rekey attack, if it lets the attacker gain a foothold that allows them continued access after the attack is detected. That is really bad!

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by Ansil849 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @12:26PM (#28425491)
This smacks way more of "well, what did you expect would happen?" than surrealism. If you introduce a vulnerability, it is nothing but hubris to think that you'll be the only one to leverage the vulnerability.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by vlovich123 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:32PM (#28426027)
Kind of, but my reading of it is that it was also a supply-side chain attack where they modified the constant that was used in the code before the binary was built. So at that level of access, I'm not sure any algorithms would hold up. I don't think Dual ECDRGB was used to attack the source control system.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by timmytokyo on Sunday September 05, 2021 @04:16PM (#28427386)
The brilliant part is that they did it in a way that remained undetected for so long. And the reason they could do that is because the backdoor already existed.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by Tylast on Sunday September 05, 2021 @04:48PM (#28427633)
I wonder how much Intellectual Property was exfiltrated because of this?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by throwaway210222 on Monday September 06, 2021 @02:21PM (#28436474)
Its hubris to think that a national state that can design and execute this kind of attack really needs your IP.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by kafkaIncarnate on Sunday September 05, 2021 @06:14PM (#28428301)
It's decades of antivirus style mindsets (we'll just clean up after), mixed with formerly being in law "enforcement" (we can't do anything until AFTER the law is broken), mixed with decades of "security by obscurity" and paranoid "hide and seek" culture, mixed with 9/11 vengeance, plus American exceptionalism.

With a smack of ham to it. I call it hot ham water.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by matheusmoreira on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:16PM (#28426918)
Not surreal at all. It's exactly what everyone in the cryptography communuty said would happen if people listened to the government and added backdoors for the "good guys".

Hope this sort of thing keeps happening. I want more concrete examples to cite when people defend this stupidity. I want the governments of the world to be too embarrassed to talk about cryptography ever again, least of all demand backdoors into private infrastructure.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by kafkaIncarnate on Sunday September 05, 2021 @05:05PM (#28427781)
They won't. You'll have lists and lists and lists, and they'll just say "you live in a society, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy", and then expect you replace your walls with glass on your house.

They're too far gone if they still believe "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" so openly.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by j16sdiz on Sunday September 05, 2021 @09:23PM (#28429348)
Everyone think the key will be leaked / mis-used. Nobody think it would be changed by other group without noticing.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by TheRealDunkirk on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:57PM (#28427248)
And if you think they only strong-armed Juniper into doing this, I've got seaside real estate in Nevada to show you. AT LEAST Cisco should be considered compromised as well.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by freeopinion on Sunday September 05, 2021 @10:55PM (#28429774)
Lakeside property in Nevada is current news.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by stjohnswarts on Sunday September 05, 2021 @05:00PM (#28427734)
lol no! it was totally expected and security people and encryption advocates have been literally saying this kind of thing was bound to happen for Decades. You can only imagine how much of this remains out there. Also, see the recent Apple debacle. Letting government interfere with private business without a warrant is always, always bad. Even with a warrant it is troubling, but at least there are some checks and balances from the courts (supposedly neutral party)
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by darksaints on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:22PM (#28426968)
This needs to be brought up every single time congress proposes encryption backdoors.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by cryptonector on Monday September 06, 2021 @11:39PM (#28440681)
It's been done before. Back in the oughts when Congress was proposing CALEA, many told them it was a bad idea.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by the_rectifier on Sunday September 05, 2021 @04:32PM (#28427503)
It's not groundbreaking: it happened again and again.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by FridayoLeary on Sunday September 05, 2021 @06:19PM (#28428338)
How do you know it isn't still happening?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by petre on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:20PM (#28425918)
That's what security researchers and cryptographers had been warning about all along. Security for thee but not for me doesn't work.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by dheera on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:34PM (#28426056)
Is there a list of exactly what equipment (model numbers) was breached?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by freeopinion on Sunday September 05, 2021 @10:50PM (#28429759)
Yes. The model number is J-U-N-I-P-E-R.

You can argue that is was a software problem, not a hardware problem. This is wrong. It was a human problem. The humans involved span the software and hardware and more across all models.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by celticninja on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:40PM (#28426111)
It is software not hardware, so whatever model used the software.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by capableweb on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:54PM (#28426213)
Theoretically you can run any software on any hardware so all hardware in the world is infected.

No, I'm not being serious. Obviously what dheera is referring to is not software vs hardware but rather what hardware is affected. To comment that it's the hardware that is running the software that is infected is hardly useful.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by dheera on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:58PM (#28426238)
Right, I'm wondering what models were designed to officially run the software that was infected, and if there are models that are known (by source code, reverse engineering or otherwise) to run uninfected firmware.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by snuxoll on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:08PM (#28426349)
Basically any Juniper NetScreen (SSG-xxx) device, since it was ScreenOS that was modified by the attackers.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by mdoms on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:24PM (#28426476)
It's Bloomberg. Be skeptical.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by dylan604 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:35PM (#28426563)
I'm surprised we haven't seen an article explaining that the chip shortage is due to so many hidden chips being secretly placed on mobos used by the largest vendors.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by sockpuppet_12 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @05:23PM (#28427936)
Why is that story so far fetched exactly?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by philistine on Sunday September 05, 2021 @06:22PM (#28428358)
If you are referring to Bloomberg's bombshell story about rogue chips installed on motherboards in China during assembly at the factory that then have compromised Apple and Amazon (referenced here: https://www.aei.org/technology-and-innovation/bloombergs-bom...) than the far-fetched element is that it has been three years since the story came out and not a single element of physical evidence have been presented, when one would simply need a microscope to find them in devices. This after multiple major news organizations spent years trying to follow-up on the story and found no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

It was a game of telephone gone horribly wrong, and Bloomberg's reputation is shot since they have refused to retract it.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by bskrobisz on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:53AM (#28430782)
>when one would simply need a microscope to find them in devices

This isn't a true statement, if strictly read--there are many techniques to hide undocumented components on boards, and covering all of them requires more than just a pass under a SEM. There's a fun talk that goes over a lot of them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqQhWitJ1As

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by 10GBps on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:45AM (#28432030)
Bloomberg continues to build on this theory (same reporter AFAIK) even as recently as this year https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2021-supermicro/
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by dylan604 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @06:03PM (#28428240)
That so many hidden/secret chips are being placed on mobos that we are suffering a global chip shortage because of it?

Do you really need it explained why that's far fetched? I'm going to let you think on that a bit longer. It should have kicked in by now.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by sockpuppet_12 on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:21PM (#28438759)
I was referring to the Bloomberg article, you can turn off that incredulity-drive now.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by dylan604 on Monday September 06, 2021 @07:43PM (#28439331)
The Heart of Gold has the improbability drive, while its sister ship the Heart of Silver has the incredulity drive. I like it. I hadn't heard that one before.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by stjohnswarts on Sunday September 05, 2021 @05:03PM (#28427768)
But be far less skeptical than if it had come out of a Rupert Murdoch owned news source.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by deadalus on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:20PM (#28425927)
What if an insider helped the foreign adversary gain access?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by SV_BubbleTime on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:01PM (#28426275)
Does that change anything with the NSA getting NIST, DoD, and later mfgs to go along with an algorithm that had two backdoors?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by adventured on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:21PM (#28425934)
> The NSA made Juniper use a backdoored algorithm

It's very important to clarify that the NSA didn't make them use it. The DoD required it as terms for future contracts. Juniper grabbed the money in knowing exchange for putting their customers at risk.

Why does that distinction matter? It dramatically increases Juniper's culpability in the scheme. If the DoD had actually forced them to use it, that dramatically reduces Juniper's culpability.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by nitrogen on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:26PM (#28425989)
This is exactly how they "make" a company do something. Look at what happened to the Qwest (IIRC?) CEO to see what happens if you refuse these contracts.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by Supermancho on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:43PM (#28426136)
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...

If a company refuses, they are making a decision (more of a gamble). Corporations will almost universally sacrifice customer safety for profit. Especially when they are making a decision between "for sure losing opportunity money" and "maybe losing money after a court case".

That does not mean they aren't liable when things go bad.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by PhantomGremlin on Sunday September 05, 2021 @07:38PM (#28428795)
I hate this meme. It's false.

Nacchio simply tried to use it as an excuse. He was just throwing shit against the wall and hoping that some of it stuck. Here's his claim: he was not in a rightful state of mind when he sold his shares because of problems with his son, and the imminent announcement of a number of government contracts.

Yeah sure, I know exactly what he means. Whenever I'm not in a "rightful state of mind" the way I cope with it is to dump company stock that I'm restricted from selling. /s

Nacchio was nothing but a greedy scumbag, and he went to Federal prison because of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by Scoundreller on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:00AM (#28430445)
Nobody is denying he insider traded, but was the insider trading (or other unlawful activities) of others that did comply go ignored/suppressed or otherwise swept under the rug?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by randombits0 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @07:28PM (#28428747)
Which is why Room 641A is filled with Juniper gear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by creato on Sunday September 05, 2021 @10:38PM (#28429704)
That doesn't make any sense, the operators of Room 641A don't need to backdoor their own gear.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by Zigurd on Monday September 06, 2021 @09:12AM (#28433318)
There is an interesting aspect of the room 641a story that could turn out to be different in detail:

The Wikipedia article says, as do other accounts, that beam splitters were used to tap into fiber optic lines. That might in fact be how it was done, but I do not think that was necessary.

IIRC, Juniper core routers were (uniquely, at the time?) capable of duplicating traffic on a NIC to another NIC without performance impact on capacity as a whole. This would have made them particularly suitable for mass surveillance that would not show up in network management metrics.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by randombits0 on Monday September 06, 2021 @11:46AM (#28434835)
When trying to make sense of why things are the way they are, one very successful technique to use is “follow the money”.

“We want you to backdoor your product for ‘National Security’ and if you do, we’ll buy many millions of dollars worth of your gear.”

What doesn’t make sense about that?

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by Scoundreller on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:08AM (#28430500)
Maybe in exchange for the backdoor they buy a mountain of non-backdoored versions too?
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by foerbert on Sunday September 05, 2021 @10:11PM (#28429581)
I don't get why this is downvoted. There is a huge difference between, say, a court order or other force-backed request and a requirement in a bidding process.

It doesn't absolve the NSA of any guilt here either, but this is not a helpless Juniper giving in due to full weight and power of the government.

Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by stjohnswarts on Sunday September 05, 2021 @05:02PM (#28427757)
Exactly, if a company is willing to go to court they can't be made to build backdoors like this, at least not yet. Hence why everyone was peeved at apple for siding with the government to add government spyware to every apple phone to make sure citizens comply.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by pjc50 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:37PM (#28426076)
Were Juniper informed of the vulnerability at the time they made the decision? It appears not.
Re:Juniper breach mystery starts to clear with new details o... by wbl on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:40PM (#28426608)
The vulnerability had been disclosed in 2007 by several independent researchers. It had also been patented by Certicom.