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Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by soared on Saturday September 04, 2021 @02:03AM (#28412494)
Id recommend getting outside of your social circle/geo a bit more. I’ve never once experienced this in Denver, and have only ever seen gender pronouns be a thing on linkedin.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by eweise on Saturday September 04, 2021 @03:05AM (#28412793)
My last job we were all highly encouraged by the CEO to add our preferred pronouns to our profiles. Just another reason I left.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by pugz on Saturday September 04, 2021 @07:06AM (#28413995)
Us too. I found it super useful because I have lots of Chinese coworkers and I have no idea whether to use “he” or “she” based on their name.

Edit: I didn’t see the last bit. Why did it factor into leaving? Were they aggressive about it or something?

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by ModernMech on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:51AM (#28416142)
As a teacher, I face the same situation. My roster says “Christine” but the student sets their name to “Chris” in the CMS and has traditionally masculine features, dress, and haircut. Do I go with “he” or “she”? Best to get pronouns out of the way during an introduction and dissipate the awkwardness.

Sometimes I wonder if people who have the biggest issue with displaying pronouns don’t meet a lot of new people, especially new trans people. Displaying pronouns makes the process so much easier and less awkward!

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by spinach on Saturday September 04, 2021 @06:45PM (#28420064)
But why not just say if a person is a man or a woman, why does it have to be pronouns. When I see pronouns, I then assume they believe in an ideology where people can actually change sex and basic reality is denied. Where people can simply declare the reality they want, and force others to play along. Why does everyone have to play along with this ideology, aka, the pronoun game.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by pugz on Sunday September 05, 2021 @06:04AM (#28422940)
To clarify: you’re ok with the words “man” and “woman”, but not “he”, “him”, “she” and “her”? I think you need to work on that, because you seem to be projecting a lot for something that really doesn’t matter.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by deanCommie on Saturday September 04, 2021 @08:00PM (#28420543)
> When I see pronouns, I then assume

That's your fault, not the fault of the concept of pronouns. In the thread above, teachers and people working in international companies both explained benefits to having pronouns listed that have nothing to do with gender expression. So, your assumption is flawed.

Secondly, let's consider your terminology: "Basic reality"; "force others to play along"; "pronoun game". Consider this scenario:

You: "Hi, are you Matthew?"

Matthew: "Yes, but actually I prefer Matt, could you call me Matt?"

Do you:

A: "Sure, no problem. Hey Matt, Joe said we should discuss Project Foobar, etc"

B: "No. Your name is Matthew, this is basic reality. Why are you forcing me to play along with your PREFERRED NAME GAME?"

I think we all know the answer to this question.

How is this different from: A new coworker starts on your team named Chris. They seem to have some masculine features but they also have long hair, are wearing makeup and a dress. But you are pretty sure they were born male.

You: "Hey, let's organize Chris's Welcome Lunch. Does anyone know his food preference?"

Your coworker: "Actually their pronouns are she/her."

Do you

A: "Sure, does anyone know her food preference?"

B: See B above.

If you think the situations are completely different, here's a third scenario. Chris is a butch woman with short hair, not a transgender person.

You: "Hey, let's organize Chris's Welcome Lunch. Does anyone know his food preference?"

Your coworker: "Actually, Chris is a woman."

What's the difference? Why is your opinion on gender expression, transgender "ideology", chromosomes, or anything else of the sort matter at all?

This is just basic human socialization 101. Treat people like they ask you to be treated in situations where there is no extra cost to you. That's it. It requires no more difference or effort to remember than in any other social circumstance separate from pronouns.

Appendix:

Yes, I am aware of the extreme exceptions. I'm sure you can find me some angry tweets from trans people who overreacted to some situation or another. But let's remember the context. People are angry because the basic human decency I described above is NOT offered to them. So yes, there are misunderstandings and chips on shoulders. But we don't need to base policy or perspective of opinions based on extreme outliers on twitter.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by mbrodersen on Saturday September 04, 2021 @10:20PM (#28421168)
I actually believe I am God. So please address me as “My Lord” or “My Saviour”. If you don’t then you are clearly a violent oppressor of mentally alternative individuals. Crazy people are people too you know and deserve the same respect and non-violence as the next guy/girl/entity/abstract/mutation/…
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by deanCommie on Sunday September 05, 2021 @12:20AM (#28421610)
There are some key differences that this and the "attack helicopter" memers miss.

There are people who believe they are God (There are people who believe htey are Attack Helicopters, I'm sure). But they are very few and far between. We ignore them, we marginalize them. Or, best case, we treat them.

Now, I'm not trying to open the pandora's box on the medical community's perspective on transgenderism. We can have this conversation after, but I am deliberately focusing on pronouns for a start.

Because when it comes to pronouns, in English-language society, we DO treat people based on gendered pronouns - male and female ones. Basically 100% of our time, 50% one, 50% the other.

So a person who is asking to be addressed as "My saviour" is asking for unique preferential treatment that you are likely not offering anyone else in life.

A person who is asking to be addressed as the gender pronouns of the other gender is asking to be treated the same way that you already treat 50% of the people you encounter, just to be re-categorized. And that's not a big ask because in the VAST Majority of cases you encounter, that person will already be presenting MOSTLY as the gender that they are asking to be treated as.

Now, you might say that being asked to be treated as a different gender than you are born is just as unusual as being asked to be treated as a God. But we don't even need to get into the statistics of prevalence to recognize that the numbers are not relevant. You already have to go through life learning 1) people's names, 2) people's nicknames, 3) people's gender when they are ambiguous or deliberately provocative. This is common metadata you remember about people.

Part of existing in society is learning other human's social characteristics, and incorporating them into how you interact with them. Pronouns are not meaningfully different.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by mbrodersen on Sunday September 05, 2021 @10:11PM (#28429578)
I feel triggered by your disagreement. People who believe they are God is clearly a minority. And therefore deserve special treatment. I might be a God but I have feelings too you know.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by deanCommie on Monday September 06, 2021 @08:52PM (#28439687)
I sure am glad that I wrote a well considered nuanced response and tried to come up with helpful analogies for our debate, only to get trolled back in response.

Sadly it's not a surprising experience for me anymore dealing with people that argue against progress.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by howinteresting on Saturday September 04, 2021 @08:38AM (#28414536)
That seems like a good thing for the trans and nonbinary employees at your former workplace.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by dragonwriter on Saturday September 04, 2021 @12:06PM (#28416266)
Its probably also good for people with gender identity within the traditional binary who have names that don’t have obvious and correct gender loading in the culture of the individuals who might be addressing them. (Even if there are photos in profiles, people can also have androgynous or non-gender-stereotypical appearance without trans or nonbinary identity.)
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by gavinray on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:06AM (#28415745)
Why is this getting downvoted?

This is a legitimate issue, and I'm not even the political/social-justice type.

(I don't mean the company forcing putting pronouns in your username, but for trans/non-binary people to put it in their profile name)

Had an instance at a job once where someone joined, I spoke with them and they were really nice + helpful. Maybe 2 months later, I went looking for them and they didn't seem to be at the company anymore.

Turns out they had changed their username to another gender along with profile pic, now used a different pronoun.

I felt like an ass when I read back to intros and learned that they didn't prefer the pronouns their name/pic implied when they joined. Quite literally "assumed their gender" and they never corrected me about it. Hope it didn't bug them, but it probably did.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by nullc on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:30AM (#28415948)
I've heard from more than one transgendered person that passed that they felt that it outs them as transgendered to go around labeling pronouns.

Many people, including those who are not transgendered, are also uncomfortable with being forced to hyper-identify with their gender. For many their gender is just a small aspect of them, and especially in a professional context where their gender has no role being forced to put on a gender-show feels sexually invasive.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by gavinray on Saturday September 04, 2021 @01:15PM (#28416908)
Oh I'm totally against forced pronoun labeling, if you read my other reply in this thread.

I'm just saying that the general concept of it if you're trans/non-binary (and WANT a particular pronoun used) is helpful for people who otherwise wouldn't know.

I think it's become commonplace enough that people don't jump to the conclusion you're trans/non-binary if you put a pronoun next to your username.

  > Many people, including those who are not transgendered, are also uncomfortable with being forced to hyper-identify with their gender.
Preaching to the choir, my partner is intergender but biologically female/female-presenting. I like to think I have at least some degree of understanding.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by MelonTree on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:34AM (#28466224)
> my partner is intergender but biologically female/female-presenting

Out of curiosity, would that make you bisexual?

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by nullc on Saturday September 04, 2021 @01:52PM (#28417350)
> (and WANT a particular pronoun used) is helpful

I think when you want something you should ask for it, for sure!

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by howinteresting on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:51AM (#28416141)
If everyone shared their pronouns than trans people wouldn't be singled out. Besides, the primary beneficiaries are trans people who don't "pass", including nonbinary people like myself for whom "passing" is an invalid concept.

Listing your pronouns isn't hyper-identifying with your gender, it is merely identifying your pronouns so that other people don't get them wrong. Gender is complex territory that goes much deeper than pronouns.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by dragonwriter on Saturday September 04, 2021 @12:09PM (#28416288)
> I've heard from more than one transgendered person that passed that they felt that it outs them as transgendered to go around labeling pronouns.

One reason for encouraging general pronoun labeling is to alleviate that exact concern.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by nullc on Saturday September 04, 2021 @01:44PM (#28417244)
It's a motivation people have, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it could achieve that goal. Another perspective is that bringing gender to the front and center will cause people to question the gender of people they're interacting with in situations where its completely irrelevant.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by tablespoon on Saturday September 04, 2021 @02:38AM (#28412665)
>> It definitely seems as though specifying your preferred gender pronouns is no longer optional. This is required "in solidarity". Being an otherwise progressive person, I don't feel great about this and how quickly it happened.

> Id recommend getting outside of your social circle/geo a bit more. I’ve never once experienced this in Denver, and have only ever seen gender pronouns be a thing on linkedin.

I've started to see them in email signatures at work, but only in situations where such specification was entirely unnecessary. Though most cases have consistent enough formatting that there may be some corporate-standard signature template that has it now.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by netrus on Saturday September 04, 2021 @05:54AM (#28413642)
I would love to have more pronouns in signatures. I cannot count the times I used Google picture search to figure out the gender of students from cultures I am not well educated about (Chinese, Indian, Arabic, Vietnamese ...). Many foreign students adopted a western name to mitigate such problems. Yikes!
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by yodsanklai on Saturday September 04, 2021 @08:16AM (#28414402)
Never found this to be an issue. When in doubt, simply don't use the pronoun and use their first name to refer to them.

> Many foreign students adopted a western name to mitigate such problems

It has more to do with pronunciation.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by Glide on Saturday September 04, 2021 @09:00AM (#28414698)
The western name thing is all about pronunciation. It also helps when you realize all other personal information on a candidate might be redacted, except for a name. It predates the current cultural climate by decades.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by deanCommie on Saturday September 04, 2021 @08:03PM (#28420569)
> in situations where such specification was entirely unnecessary

Doing it in situations where such specification is entirely unnecessary is precisely how you normalize it not being weird.

If the only people that had listed pronouns were ones that needed it, it would "other" them, and make pronoun preferences WEIRD and UNUSUAL.

If we recognize that even before the cultural mainstream of transness, EVERYONE already had preferred pronouns (just the ones that happen to match their gender), then we can normalize it.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by qualudeheart on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:54AM (#28421926)
I’ve experienced that when I went to a LGBT students event with my partner at their university, though that’s an environment where one might expect that to happen.