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Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by caslon on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:00PM (#28373597)
Southpaw here! I'd never buy a laptop without a number pad. The track pad being off-center is also good.

Gaming? 78462 make for the best movement, and the number pad also has seven non-numerical buttons to bind things to. It also puts your index finger right next to lENTER, which is so useful for games that make use of it.

Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX programs to make for a better IDE than an IDE.

Calculating? So nice to have an ergonomic numerical input.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by nextlevelwizard on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @06:56AM (#28378284)
>gaming

Why skip 5 to use 2 instead? And you also have extra keys around WASD to bind to. What makes numpad keys any different? For lefties who use mouse with left hand you can have same keys on the right hand side but hat varies (for me equal keys would be plöä)

>programming

Are all of your function keys already populated? And if you are going to move your hand to numpad why skip over insert, home, page up/down, and end?

>calculating

Well there you have me. 20 years ago when I was manually inserting PSU serial numbers into excel numpad was real nice, but I can't remember last time I had to input numbers like that.

My current keyboard has numpad, but only thing I've used it in years was as abort button for some bots.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by caslon on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @12:39PM (#28382153)
> Why skip 5 to use 2 instead?

Walking backwards usually is slower in video games, so you can bind 5 to something you use more commonly. 7 is autorun. 5 makes a great button to set for fishing or your most-critical spell.

> And you also have extra keys around WASD to bind to. What makes numpad keys any different? For lefties who use mouse with left hand you can have same keys on the right hand side but hat varies (for me equal keys would be plöä)

The left side of the keyboard has more buttons, and you use those for complex combinations in video games, which leaves the number pad in a unique spot of being a "quick access" bar.

> Are all of your function keys already populated? And if you are going to move your hand to numpad why skip over insert, home, page up/down, and end?

On a good laptop keyboard, insert, home, end, pgup and pgdn are all directly above the number pad. This gives you extra buttons that are just a little out-of-the-way, but it doesn't make it so you have to reach your hands over them to reach the number pad. On the best laptop keyboard I've ever used, literally every button was just in a grid, with a few smaller (but still grid-fitting) buttons mixed in, like the arrow keys and function keys.

But yes, my function keys are already populated.

> Well there you have me. 20 years ago when I was manually inserting PSU serial numbers into excel numpad was real nice, but I can't remember last time I had to input numbers like that.

Anecdotally, I use calculators of various sorts as a way of verification while programming; a lot of the problems I find myself drawn to are close to abstracted math (as are most things when you aren't a web programmer), and it's really useful to be able to jot down an equation and verify you've handled the problem right before you commit to it.

> My current keyboard has numpad, but only thing I've used it in years was as abort button for some bots.

You should bind the buttons to be useful to you! It's very nice once you've done so.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by ben-schaaf on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:10PM (#28375493)
Another big one is Blender; I don't think I could use it without a numpad.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by slezyr on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @04:57AM (#28377648)
You can, there is a setting for such cases

https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/editors/preference...

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by grifball on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:02PM (#28375739)
You can buy a usb numpad for blender. I did this to save money on a mechanical keyboard.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by orthoxerox on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @06:53AM (#28378271)
Was it a mechanical numpad?
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by albertgoeswoof on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:05PM (#28373660)
Yes the numpad comes in useful when I’m calculating all day
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by ImprovedSilence on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:35PM (#28375603)
I have a nice ten-keyless mech keyboard that I love to use for programming. However I really do miss having a number pad more than I thought I would.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by Haegin on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:33PM (#28375913)
If it's programmable you could set up a layer with a number pad on it. I've done that with mine and basically never use the actual number keys now.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by bbojan on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @03:59AM (#28377383)
Yup, I did this and it's great. I also ended up assigning the thumb key to 0, since I've noticed it's used more often than other digits (and also you have to fit it somewhere, since the other ones are in a 3x3 grid).
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by LAC-Tech on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:57PM (#28374188)
If you were a real hacker you'd use it for playing roguelikes in the terminal.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by pmontra on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @05:43AM (#28377927)
Yeah, that was the last time I used a keypad. I really hate mine. I don't have a use case for it and because of it I have to slide the laptop to the right, to align the keyboard with my vertical axis of symmetry.

I understand that many people need it and many others don't. I wish manufacturers had an option for keyboards without the number pad. I'd pay an extra for it.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by suprfsat on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @06:21PM (#28374391)
hjklyubn
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by viraptor on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:03PM (#28375461)
That would take over the usual [k]ick, [l]ook, etc.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by luc_ on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:32PM (#28373961)
irony over text..?
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by Cederfjard on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:08PM (#28373691)
> Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX programs to make for a better IDE than an IDE.

Mind sharing some examples of your bindings?

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by caslon on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:43PM (#28374081)
My favorite (and the one I find myself getting the most joy from using) is /, which I have bound to tangle and weave my currently-open project (dbus, yay) into /tmp, apply a stylesheet to the output of it, determine languages used within, embed Emscripten-compiled interpreters for the languages being used into the generated pages (its file system API is incredible, "I Can't Believe It's Not UNIX!"-worthy), and launch a Mozilla instance so I can interactively play with/debug my programs while reading their documentation in the same window.

If this sounds like a convoluted REPL with fancier in-line documentation, you're kind of right. It's basically just interactive and automated literate programming, though.

The rest of my bindings range from pretty simple (running an open project's tests, displaying results from the last 10 commits, etc.) to significantly more complex. I have a few different xkb layouts depending on what I'm doing, and a few different languages get dedicated ones, but for the ones I most-commonly use, they all share one.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by Cederfjard on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @04:20AM (#28377487)
Thanks!
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by amelius on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:53PM (#28374161)
Ok, so the conclusion is that the keyboard should be customizable.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by reilly3000 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:15PM (#28376113)
Yes. I don’t know what trade offs that would entail or if that should be something the user or factory would do, but yes, absolutely.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by caslon on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @06:01PM (#28374219)
No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always better. You can always customize a keyboard with minimal effort, unless you're on a really bad operating system, like any of the proprietary ones.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by Fnoord on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:28PM (#28374849)
> No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always better.

Not really. There was a time where laptops, especially 15", had front speakers. If the choice is that or numpad, I pick front speakers. Its a bummer smartphones don't have them anymore these days. More keys might seem like a no-brainer, but its always also less is more and keys you don't use are useless keys. As power user, it seems (re)binding of keys is in order anyway.

1080p and numpad is a downgrade from my MBP 2015. It also doesn't specify much about the AMD graphics card. I'd rather get a modular laptop instead, but with 1440p minimum.

The thing with a trackpad centered to left (let alone its gonna be as good as a Magic Trackpad 2 by Apple from 2015 and onward), is that if you use your right hand your arm can get hurt if you let it rest. And, you should let your arms rest. Also, the arm is in the way. Apple had a neat solution to it: large(r) trackpad (though I prefer the previous one, centered).

But I was never in the market for this because if I order something like this from USA I get to pay a large amount of taxes on top of it cause the price never includes tax. Let me know if its available in Europe and I'll have a look, but the above remain serious concerns so I doubt it.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by SilverRed on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @12:36AM (#28376483)
The iphone has a front speaker. The top one is a loudspeaker and a normal phone one. And they tune it so when in landscape I don't really notice the difference between the front and outwards speaker.

Phone speakers have come a long way since samsung was putting them on the back of the phones..

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by luke2m on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @07:17AM (#28378415)
I got a 14 inch laptop with front speakers, and a 6 row keyboard. Since I came from a laptop with a 7 row, I actually would prefer to have one of those extra columns of keys that hp makes.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by caslon on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @01:05AM (#28376585)
My laptop has front speakers & a number pad. Keys you don't use need to be rebound until you use them.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by least on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @03:17AM (#28377196)
More buttons isn't always better because there's a limited range of motion that is reasonable for someone to type with. Having a number pad on a laptop keyboard reinforces bad ergonomics because you either need to shift your entire body to the left and have your screen off center or you have a constant and pretty severe lateral deviation in your right hand.

As for customizing a keyboard with minimal effort... it's actually easier to do that with MacOS and Windows than it is in linux, in my experience. Sure, you can do basic key remapping really easily in linux with xmodmap but if you want to do anything complicated with the built in keyboard, MacOS has Karabiner Elements which is far better than any of the built in or custom keyboard software like xcape or xkeysnail. Similarly on Windows, AutoHotKey is much easier to do complex customizations as well. I haven't really tried Kmonad but that is cross-platform so it wouldn't really be considered an advantage to linux.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by evilduck on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @12:12AM (#28376354)
Hard disagree. I dont need more keys, I need better keys. More keys just means more reaching and more strain. I use the Preonic and would love to see layer keys on a laptop instead of a stupidly big spacebar nobody ever uses wasting so much real estate.

I think the Framework laptop is our best shot at it though.

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by Shorel on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:12PM (#28374756)
Just put the damn thing in the middle.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by stonecharioteer on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:31PM (#28375899)
I'd actually be into that. I come from the split keyboards world. Put your god damned numpad in the middle and give me ortholinear keys on each side. I will throw money at you today.
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by atatatat on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @12:15AM (#28376368)
> I come from the split keyboards world.

What terrifying place is that? (I'm just poking fun, but seriously: where?)

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by Symbiote on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @04:22AM (#28377496)
I maintain a gallery of split keyboards for people to see what's available: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

Discussed here previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by rgoulter on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @01:13AM (#28376621)
Generally, hobbyist mechanical keyboards that you assemble by buying or fabricating a PCB, and doing a bit of soldering. Most designs have relatively easy soldering.

Some hobbyist shops may offer assembly services. If you don't want to solder, ZSA labs have a "moonlander" keyboard that looks quite nice, for a premium price.

If you're not put off by soldering, then some popular split keyboards would be the Corne (also known as "crkbd"), Kyria, lily58, Sofle.

There are also designs which are closer to a normal keyboard, like the ultimate hacking keyboard. (But, personally, I don't understand why you'd spend so much money on a keyboard and have it be asymmetric).

Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by masklinn on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @02:36AM (#28376991)
Surely the origins of split keyboards are ergo spaces not hobbyist?
Re:System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals n... by least on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @03:06AM (#28377144)
Split keyboards have been around for quite a while. You can even see the Kinesis Advantage keyboard featured in films like Flubber and Men in Black and plenty of companies have made ergonomic keyboards.

I think there's a sort of hobbyist renaissance going on right now, though. Plenty of new keyboards are being designed and built because it's more accessible than ever to design your own pcb or if not that to get someone else's design printed, which along with the general mechanical keyboard enthusiast market, has given people a wealth of options to choose from.