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Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by paxys on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @01:53AM (#28364400)
Never in the history of the USA have young people – or really anyone else for that matter – liked the government. It's against what this country is really about. There are a lot of countries in the world (maybe even the majority) where a government job is the gold standard and what everyone aspires for, but that is very unlikely to ever happen here.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by aaronbrethorst on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @02:00AM (#28364437)
The data disagrees with your first statement. Certainly true since the early 2000s, but we don’t have to be fatalistic about this.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/09/14/americans-vi...

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by kortilla on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @02:36AM (#28364622)
“Trusting the government to do the right thing”, which is what that pew research is checking, is a constantly moving target.

In 1955 when that trust was super high, everyone could have trusted the government to stay out of their lives and to only interfere if we had to go to war. That’s very different from people wanting the federal government to take over healthcare, energy, housing, etc.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by Teknoman117 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @03:45AM (#28364979)
In 1955 needing to go to the doctor didn’t bankrupt your family.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by tellersid on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:19AM (#28366419)
I mean really? In 1955 people were worried about a literal nuclear apocalypse.

Of course health care was much cheaper when the doctor basically had no health care to give.

A medicine man 2000 years ago was even cheaper, practically free.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by N1H1L on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:13AM (#28369123)
For white suburban middle class it didn't. For black people it absolutely did.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by asdff on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @02:42AM (#28364669)
People liked FDRs government a lot.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by paganel on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:18AM (#28365162)
And I'd say that goodwill was passed through into the 1950s and most of the 1960s. The Vietnam War and the accompanying hippie/student movements started to put a big dent in that, followed by Watergate, of course.

What is interesting to me (as a non-American who has never set foot in the US) is that big Government seems to have had a resurgence in Reagan's 1980s, thanks mostly to its military-related expenditure but not only. I think the final "Government is bad"/"we don't need it" coup de grâce was carried out in the Clinton years, the (in-)famous Third Way [1] which was mostly one way, to be honest, i.e. neoliberal policies carried with full speed.

It does seem that the Government and how it is viewed has started to be seen in a more positive light again, thanks mostly to the millennial generation (I hate the "generation" concept but that's the best I can come with), especially after the 2008-2010 financial crisis and the accompanying social changes (increase of economic inequality, mostly), which I find highly interesting. It was also interesting how the US was very keynes-ian in its response to the pandemic, I mean putting cash directly into people's pockets is I think more than Keynes would have hoped for.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by pedroma on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @02:46AM (#28364692)
Nobody ever? I'm surprised how big the US government has become then, especially with the low salary.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by kelnos on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @03:17AM (#28364842)
For a country that isn't supposed to like its government, we sure have a lot of government.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by smt88 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @03:22AM (#28364870)
At least in terms of taxes as a percentage of GDP, we have less than almost every other Western country.

What is a country with "less" government (by any standard you choose) and better quality of life?

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by sdenton4 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @02:17AM (#28364525)
Undermining faith in the government has been a right wing project since riiiight around the time the federal government took a strong role in passing and enforcing civil rights law...
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by kortilla on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @02:37AM (#28364624)
Nope, it’s been a theme since around the time of the federalist papers.
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Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by tptacek on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:13AM (#28368340)
Seriously?
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by rayiner on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:56PM (#28375427)
Yes seriously. Portraying conservative interest in small government as being a result of civil rights enforcement is pure historical revisionism. Hoover’s party advocated small government while FDR’s party advocate big government. Those orientations were in place long before FDR’s party got on board with civil rights.

What’s changed isn’t the parties but the valance of civil rights issues. The court cases today aren’t about facially discriminatory laws, but about whether the USDA can discriminate based on race in granting debt relief, or whether Harvard can use race as a criterion for admissions. The party of FDR and Wilson is the natural home for those efforts at bureaucratic social engineering, while the party of Hoover is the natural opponent of such efforts.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by tptacek on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:04PM (#28376072)
What does any of this have to do with the vote tallies on civil rights bills? The modern Republican party is literally defined by opposition to those bills; it was the core of Goldwater's strategy, which set in motion the "ideological sort" of the late 70s and 80s.

I probably don't have a beef with your defense of limited government! But obviously you can't use D'Souza-ism to build your case.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by rayiner on Thursday September 02, 2021 @09:30PM (#28399495)
> The modern Republican party is literally defined by opposition to those bills; it was the core of Goldwater's strategy, which set in motion the "ideological sort" of the late 70s and 80s.

Goldwater lost in a landslide, losing virtually every traditional Republican state including his home state of Arizona. He won a few southern states, but Carter won all of those same states in 1976. Saying that Goldwater’s civil rights stance defines the modern Republican Party is like trying to call Joe Biden socialist. It’s red meat for Democrats, not historically accurate.

The Reagan re-sort was driven by economic development in the southern states, as those states became dependent on low taxes and low regulation to draw business from blue states. Carter won rural Georgia in 1980, but Reagan won up and coming Atlanta suburbs like Gwinnett and Cobb.

On race, Reagan ran on opposition to affirmative action, which is completely different than the civil rights laws Goldwater opposed: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/....

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by tptacek on Friday September 03, 2021 @06:55PM (#28410355)
We're on a thread nobody is reading, but obviously I don't think your argument is winnable. Goldwater lost, but Nixon won, on explicitly the same racial strategy. Nor is the chronology of the ideological sort really disputable.

Goldwater's civil rights stance defines the modern Republican party. The party has moderated since Goldwater, of course, but Goldwater's positioning literally restructured US politics, from a de facto 4-party state (in the 1970s, Republican support for abortion rights was still an open question! There's a 1970s-era GOP platform where debate on abortion is a plank!) to the 2-party "liberal/conservative" one we have today. Rockefeller wouldn't even be a Kiwanis Republican today; he'd simply be a Democrat. Phil Gramm did become a Republican; in fact, almost every party switcher in the US after the Civil Rights act switched to the GOP, because they were fleeing the Democratic party after the Civil Rights Act.

The idea that the modern Democratic party is somehow accountable to votes against civil rights legislation is D'Souza-ism. It ignores the plain fact that those Democrats became Republicans, and, to a lesser extent, a bunch of liberal Republicans became Democrats. You see it clearly in the candidates themselves, but also even more clearly in shifts among voters.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by rayiner on Friday September 03, 2021 @09:13AM (#28403719)
I don’t even support the Republican view of limited government here! I think it amounts to “we’re not going to do anything to remedy centuries of slavery and segregation.” I’d support reparations for ADOS people.

But I don’t see any reason to misrepresent the Republican stance. That position is not opposition to civil rights laws, it’s opposition to affirmative action and quotas, and cabining the concept of “racism” to what’s facially discriminatory.

What drives race politics in the country is that Democrats have a special sympathy for Black people and want to help erase persistent disparities, and Republicans don’t care. Democrats want to change existing race-neutral systems to eliminate disparities, and Republicans resist such change. But Republicans as a group don’t want to make it legal for e.g. hotels to discriminate based on race.

See: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/renos/files/carneyenos.pdf

> We suggest that modern racism scales are primarily capturing two phenomenon: 1) racial liberalism or sympathy and 2) a general set of attitudes about fairness, or a political orientation known as “just world belief” that perceives the world as consisting of people who work hard and those who do not.

See also: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/americas-wh...

> Remarkably, white liberals were the only subgroup exhibiting a pro-outgroup bias—meaning white liberals were more favorable toward nonwhites and are the only group to show this preference for group other than their own.

It’s just the normal liberal versus conservative stuff. Social engineering versus letting natural forces play out. Focus on substantive fairness versus focus on procedural fairness. Focus on government as driving outcomes versus focus on culture driving outcomes. External locus of control versus internal locus of control. Etc.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by tptacek on Friday September 03, 2021 @06:57PM (#28410375)
This all seems reasonable! All I'm pushing back on is the idea that you could draw a conclusion from votes on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Obviously, you can't.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by random314 on Saturday September 04, 2021 @04:47AM (#28413308)
I would say that the tabletmag attack piece shared by rayiner is absolutely not reasonable.

It does not really say what is wrong with white liberals but simply shames them and aims to make white liberals seem ridiculous. The repeated use of the term "wokeness" for a liberal attitude is also a key part of the shaming strategy.

The substance of the shaming seems to boil down to three points.

1. White liberals support affirmative action and reparations

2. White liberals are positive about immigration

3. White liberals are more supportive of Palestine than Israel unlike before (anti colonialism and anti apartheid are obvious reasons)

Why should white liberals be ashamed of this attitude?! These are the insinuated reasons in the article.

1. We will call this "wokeness" and laugh at your ridiculousness

2. Oh you have a white savior complex? Hilarious.

3. Umm, do you know that colored liberals are not as liberal as you?

4. Isn't being pro Palestine anti Semitic?

5. You do know that white liberals supported Israel 10 years ago, right?

Rayiner sharing this hit piece, complaining about wokeness in the midst of Republican authored antivax epidemic is par for the course for him. But the audience cant allow him to make multiple cheap shots every day in the interest of sounding reasonable and accommodative. I would like to see him offer one comment of the crazy antivax Republican leadership killing hundreds every day instead of some cheap shots about wokeness, liberals and school administrators.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by tptacek on Saturday September 04, 2021 @07:16PM (#28420265)
I don't think personalized comments like this are helpful, either to the site or to the argument you're trying to make.
Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by random314 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @04:12AM (#28422436)
The personalized comments while relevant are very few, but the substance of the comment is a critique of the tabletmag article and the introduction of the term "wokeness" across several media outlets to shame any kind of liberal POV. The POV being thrust is "Today's liberals are idiotic trend chasers unlike liberals of the civil rights era". Liberals were ridiculed in the 60s as well and it is no different this time.

The particular example of rayiner compelling you to implicitly accept that "wokeness" is degrading society is the kind of Gish Gallop rhetoric that gets churned out in supposedly "intellectual" forums. A way of pushing the Overton window to the right in the more educated and wealthier forums beyond rural America.

Re:White House Launches US Digital Corps by random314 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:04PM (#28375463)
I don't know why you keep pushing narratives that are borderline asinine. Yes, the Republican party is about "small government" and "civil rights" as exemplified by Mr. Trump and his lackey Stephen Miller.