Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by short_sells_poo on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:09AM (#28220066)

Beyond that, are we seriously going to ignore the fact that eventually this system will share the private photos of someone's naked kid with some random subcontractor? How is that even remotely OK? Or that it will find and share actual CSAM with said subcontractor?

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by FabHK on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:18AM (#28220109)

It only shares "visual derivatives" of images whose NeuralHash match the NeuralHash of known CSAM (either by being the same image ("perceptually") or a collision).

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by short_sells_poo on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:32AM (#28221459)

That to me just sounds like weasel words to avoid having to say that it shares images. Let's not beat about the bush, the "visual derivative" has to be good enough to identify what's going on in it for the manual confirmation.

Are you actually arguing in good faith here at all? Because I can't see how a "visual derivative" that's nevertheless good enough for manual confirmation is any better than the source image?

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by cyanite on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:52PM (#28226981)

> Are you actually arguing in good faith here at all?

Are you? Because you just seemed to claim that it could match against innocent pictures of your naked children, but this tells me that you don’t understand that this system looks for known pictures, not for something that looks like naked children.

Edit: if you do, apologies, but then I’d say that Apple has suggested that it’s a low resolution version of the picture. This should be contrasted with server side scanning, where the server accesses all pictures fully.

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by stetrain on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:28AM (#28220676)

This system does not use ML to find new CSAM images. It only checks for ones already in a known database. Your pictures of kids in the bathtub are not on the list.

What is show to the reviewer is a "visual derivative" which hasn't been clearly defined. A thumbnail image? Something with a censored section? We don't really know.

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by short_sells_poo on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:30AM (#28221427)

Yes I'm aware that it checks against a known database but clearly there can be collisions. So eventually it will share someone's private images.

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by bengale on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:25AM (#28222495)

It would need to have 30 collisions before anything even took place, which realistically isn't going to happen.

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by brokenmachine on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:12PM (#28229573)

Most cameras nowadays can easily take a burst of 30 visually very similar images in a second.

Lots of people leave their cameras in burst mode.

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by robertoandred on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:39AM (#28221573)

Or rather, it will share some gray blob apparently.

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by short_sells_poo on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:23AM (#28222444)

What is the point of sharing a gray blob? How is that going to prove anything?

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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by stetrain on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:04PM (#28223208)

I think the gray blob refers to engineered hash collisions, like the example in the article link.

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