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Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:11AM (#28196817)
You also shouldn't forget to hold the other powers to account that made it impossible to have peace in Afghanistan.

Russia put out bounties on US soldiers, Iran armed the Taliban, Pakistan sheltered them and I'm sure China had their fingers in there just as well.

The Taliban have never been the legitimate, much less the benevolent government of the Afghan people. If you've seen "The Handmaid's Tale" you have a general idea of what happened in the 90's and is going to happen there again.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by pepperonipizza on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:18AM (#28197195)
Russia bounty on US soldiers story was probably fake, medias were quiet when it was revealed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/...

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:02AM (#28197518)
The article you are referring to actually says the story is probably true, but that the confidence of the intelligence community in this finding is only "weak to moderate".

The much bigger problem was that Trump said outright this story is fake, instead of holding Putin's feet to the fire or getting behind the issue at all.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by vxNsr on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:41AM (#28197930)
If every US president held Russia’s feet to the fire when the CIA had “weak to moderate” intel we’d be banging two rocks together for fire because WW3 would’ve happened already.

Stop pretending to care.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:46AM (#28198740)
Because there is no middle ground between sucking up to Putin and going to nuclear war with him.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by vxNsr on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @04:55PM (#28214745)
Because while trump was increasingly trying to isolate Russia for its bad behavior comrade Biden rolled over in his first meeting and removed a bunch of restrictions.

The story wasn’t that “Russia had a bounty on US soldiers” instead it was “Trump knew that Putin put out a bounty on US soldiers” neither story is true but you only really care about the second one because OMB.

The point is your crocodile tears are a sad excuse for caring.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by youngtaff on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:18AM (#28197193)
Our allies in the Gulf States are also responsible too

> Several Afghan and US officials have long accused several regional governments including Pakistan, Iran and Russia of giving financial aid to the Afghan Taliban, a practice they frequently deny. > Private citizens from Pakistan and several Gulf countries including Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar are considered the largest individual contributors. > Although impossible to measure, these sources of funding clearly provide a significant proportion of the Taliban's revenue, and according to experts and officials could be as much as $500m a year. > These links are long-standing. A classified CIA report estimated in 2008 that the Taliban had received $106m, from foreign sources, in particular from the Gulf states.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-46554097

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by Clubber on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:38AM (#28197892)
>Russia put out bounties on US soldiers

That was BS. It's amazing what you find out when people are actually under oath. It was likely an intelligence "leak" to keep us in Afghanistan. These are the same organizations that tried successfully to convince us of "WMDs." I'm not sure why people continue take what they say at face value anymore, especially the news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_bounty_program

The Department of Defense (DOD), in testimony in July 2020 to the House Armed Services Committee by General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Defense Secretary Mark Esper, said that U.S. defense intelligence agencies had no information to corroborate reports of a Russian bounty program in Afghanistan[37] and lacked evidence of "cause and effect linkages to a Russian bounty program causing U.S. Military casualties."[5][38]

Citing credible unnamed sources, on June 26, 2020, The New York Times reported on a Russian military program to pay bounties to Taliban-linked militants for killing American soldiers in Afghanistan.[17] Two days later, The Washington Post reported that the bounty program had resulted in the death of at least one U.S. soldier.[16]

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by zozbot234 on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:14AM (#28196831)
Has there been any legitimate, benevolent government there in living memory? Perhaps they're simply better off with a king, much like the frogs in Aesop's tale.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:47AM (#28197009)
I'm opinionated in the sense that the only "legitimate" government would be one that is chosen democratically and acts in a particular manner.

And I'm particularly not saying that there is or must ever have been some particular "legitimate government" for every piece of land. I'm just saying that when the US went in and kicked out the Taliban, they definitely weren't making things worse from a lot of perspectives. They ultimately weren't able to solve all the problems, but that is a different question. The 20 years have largely been better than the years under Taliban rule.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by ryneandal on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:46AM (#28197979)
IIRC, historically, the tribal settlements in the country never had a ton of interaction with each other due to the terrain. I think it's a great example of modern borders not making much sense given the interactions of the population.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:49AM (#28198781)
There have often been buddhist, muslim and other kingdoms or larger military organizations in power in Afghanistan.

It's not that the borders don't make sense, it's that the area as a whole is hard to rule and it's hard to pay for that ruling. Currently one could argue that the medieval kind of "political technology" used by the Taliban is superior to the democratic political technology, for this very reason.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by ryneandal on Monday August 16, 2021 @12:11PM (#28199700)
Re-watched the video I was misremembering, and they're iterating exactly what you mentioned. I learned more about Afghanistan from this than anything in the news for the past two decades -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab9zK8yT4_Y
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @02:24AM (#28218213)
Also the win condition of the government and government forces was to keep order in all of Afghanistan, guarantee the rights of women, and generally promote economic progress.

The Taliban's win condition was basically to inflict just enough damage the former condition would be impossible. Their troops are not far removed from criminals themselves: they loot, rape and torture.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by ryneandal on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @02:16PM (#28304965)
I mean, we've seen conclusively with leaks like Collateral Murder -- there are no winners in war.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by baybal2 on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:29AM (#28196909)
No, there weren't. The one king which ran off to Italy was somewhat moderately legitimate, and moderately popular, but not enough to survive having his key people assassinated, nor to gain meaningful foreign assistance (USA denied his plea to save his ass from communists.)

It were Britishers who started this mess 140 years ago, and they must be the ones to fix this.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by nradov on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:34AM (#28197849)
The British have no capability to fix this.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by vxNsr on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:47AM (#28197995)
The way to fix this is to return the country to city states. No central ruler.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:34AM (#28210294)
Then the city states go fight each other. Or somebody assembles a large enough militia to loot one city after another. Or multiple city states band together and lord it over others.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by baybal2 on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:51AM (#28198054)
* error above, it's been 180 years ago

And since then, the country effectively had 180 years of slowly going civil war without much interruption sans for the few decades under king

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by VictorPath on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:07AM (#28198261)
> The Taliban have never been the legitimate, much less the benevolent government of the Afghan people. If you've seen "The Handmaid's Tale" you have a general idea of what happened in the 90's

That is because the USA armed and bankrolled the jihadists who overthrew the secular, left-leaning PDPA in the 1980s. Here is Ronald Reagan with the jihadists in the White House

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c9RWtx8myQc

It's inane for Americans to arm a jihadist insurgency against a left-leaning secular government, and then tear their vestments in some feigned moral superiority that the jihadists would take over the country thirty years later.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by tablespoon on Monday August 16, 2021 @01:48PM (#28200801)
> That is because the USA armed and bankrolled the jihadists who overthrew the secular, left-leaning PDPA in the 1980s. Here is Ronald Reagan with the jihadists in the White House

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c9RWtx8myQc

> It's inane for Americans to arm a jihadist insurgency against a left-leaning secular government, and then tear their vestments in some feigned moral superiority that the jihadists would take over the country thirty years later.

It's weird that you wouldn't mention this important context:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

> The foundations of the conflict were laid by the Saur Revolution, a 1978 coup wherein Afghanistan's communist party took power, initiating a series of radical modernization and land reforms throughout the country. These reforms were deeply unpopular among the more traditional rural population and established power structures.[56] The repressive nature of the "Democratic Republic",[57] which vigorously suppressed opposition and executed thousands of political prisoners, led to the rise of anti-government armed groups; by April 1979, large parts of the country were in open rebellion.[58]

> The communist party itself experienced deep internal rivalries between the Khalqists and Parchamites; in September 1979, People's Democratic Party General Secretary Nur Mohammad Taraki was assassinated under orders of the second-in-command, Hafizullah Amin, which soured relations with the Soviet Union. With fears rising that Amin was planning to switch sides to the United States,[59] the Soviet government, under leader Leonid Brezhnev, decided to deploy the 40th Army across the border on 24 December 1979.[60] Arriving in the capital Kabul, they staged a coup (Operation Storm-333),[61] killing General Secretary Amin and installing Soviet loyalist Babrak Karmal from the rival faction Parcham.[58] The Soviet invasion[nb 1] was based on the Brezhnev Doctrine.

Also, the Taliban started in 1994, and it's hard not to feel morally superior to people who do stuff like this: https://twitter.com/NasrinNawaBBC/status/1425139216443482112.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by endisneigh on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:42AM (#28197935)
Why are you sure China had their fingers in there just as well? Why not Japan? Germany? Italy?
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by tg180 on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:40AM (#28198679)
At this point it's history: because China borders with Afghanistan and has a primary interest in the stability of the region.

Wang Yi (the Chinese Foreign Minister) last July met in Tianjin a delegation of nine members of the Taliban.

He promised support in the reconstruction of Afghanistan and asked them to interrupt links with the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, accused to have perpetrated attacks in the Xinjiang. For Beijing, some Jihadist Uiguri would be affiliated with the organization.

Wang promised to make the country part of the new Silk Road, contributing with infrastructure investments (motorways, hydroelectric energy, ...). This would prevent social, political and terrorist instability, while saving an unpleasant military action.

Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by enumjorge on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:28AM (#28198528)
Saying China is as impartial as Japan, German, and Italy when it comes to foreign affairs involving the US is either incredibly naive or disingenuous. It doesn’t itself prove Chinese involvement, but there’s a clear history of tension between the American and Chinese governments.
Re:Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure by bayesian_horse on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:36AM (#28210312)
Germany and Italy did have troops in Afghanistan, but they worked to keep the peace.

And China has not only a border with Afghanistan, it also has a history of shady dealings with neighbor countries in trouble.