News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by roenxi on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:17PM (#28176478)
It is a very tenuous theory that this will only end at CSAM with alleged trillion to 1 odds. It is unclear how they justify stopping there - all laws are roughly equal in the eyes of government, why shouldn't an iPhone enforce them all? This incident shows that Apple is comfortable with the idea of using my phone to get me imprisoned:

1. I don't want to financially support anyone going through my private things in conjunction with what is basically the police, looking for reasons to imprison me. Reasonable suspicion first, thankyou very much.

2. I don't trust them to use this in a politically neutral way. This is too much power.

3. I don't trust them to manage the false positive rate. Everyone knows how reliable software engineers are when they claim a system does something. At heart they aren't 1 in a trillion people.

This is a great time to be outraged. I can't really do much about what they do on their servers, but I can certainly get antsy about what happens on my phone.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by omikun on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:40PM (#28176640)
It's not like this is some new fancy technology no one could do before. There has never been any technical barriers to scanning your phone for insert-reason as part of the OS. The slippery slope argument could be made from the first smart phone. The government could always pressure any company to put a backdoor in any OS. Apple hasn't done this (to our knowledge) so far and this new CSAM scanning feature doesn't remove any non-existing barriers to that end.

They just gave a talk at the USENIX Security Symposium on how this works and the safeguards put in place. The scanning functionality is part of the icloud photo upload module. Security researchers can determine if they change the scanning algorithm in future updates. I don't know what else you can hope for.

Going back to the slipper slope argument, you could say nothing stops them (or Google on Android) from uploading your passcode and share it with X. It's all just software in the end that they write that powers the lock screen and security checks.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by roenxi on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:56PM (#28176737)
> Going back to the slipper slope argument, you could say nothing stops them (or Google on Android) from uploading your passcode and share it with X. It's all just software in the end that they write that powers the lock screen and security checks.

If they start claiming they do that then I'll get angry about that too. You'll notice that only the fringe is accusing Apple of being liars or acting in bad faith here. Apple are pretty up front about what they do.

The problem with this plan is they're claiming they are only going to do selective law enforcement (only 1 US law, only things that are strongly supported by consensus and even then only sometimes). That isn't a position with a reasonable foundation, they are going to change their mind. I want them to change it in the "we don't snoop on people's phones" direction rather than open season.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by jkaplowitz on Saturday August 14, 2021 @03:03AM (#28178686)
A possible workaround - but not remotely one I expect them to do - is for them to amend their own terms of use to forbid themselves from expanding this feature without explicit opt-in consent, forbid themselves from making any expanded version mandatory to continue using the device with their software, contractually agree to liquidated damages in case of breach equal to three times the greater of original phone MSRP or actual purchase price plus included taxes/fees and inflation and interest and attorney/court fees, and remove their right to amend this provision without that same non-mandatory opt-in consent.

Again, I don't expect them to do this. But they could add a useful level of trust if they were really motivated to do so.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by tekknik on Saturday August 14, 2021 @09:21AM (#28180396)
Then they could just change their ToS when they wanted to add more.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by jkaplowitz on Saturday August 14, 2021 @10:53PM (#28185894)
Not true. If they had previously adopted my suggestion in the old ToS, that itself would either be a breach of that ToS (leading to liability for prohibitively large contractual damages) or would be an invalid change. I suggested that they explicitly remove their right to make this kind of change unilaterally. Terms of Service don't have to allow their authors an unfettered unilateral right of amendment.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by tekknik on Sunday August 15, 2021 @08:12AM (#28188107)
And what’s the recourse if a company breaks their own ToS? Also no company will give up any rights as they have no real way in knowing if the gov will come force more images to be added. What then?
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by jkaplowitz on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:28PM (#28204149)
The main recourse in practice with the arrangement I described would be a class action lawsuit alleging on breach of contract. I'm quite sure courts would have no problem with the lawsuit, assuming there were no arbitration clause or class action waiver.

As for no company giving up rights, I did say I didn't expect Apple to actually do this, only that they could. Though, companies do actually make binding contractual promises all the time. It's just that they don't tend to do it with consumers or small businesses who have no negotiating leverage and/or no desire to insist on those promises.

Regarding your hypothetical, anything that's actually legally mandated by the government generally overrides contract law since the courts won't enforce illegal contracts and illegality is a defense to breach of contract. They can always do what the law actually requires.

But we're not talking about the government mandating things, since both the iOS 14 behavior and the iOS 15 behavior comply with the law.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by tekknik on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:44PM (#28204308)
> Regarding your hypothetical, anything that's actually legally mandated by the government generally overrides contract law

Which means this action is just a charade, as I pointed out. Because fundamentally it doesn't really matter. The gov is going to do what they do, and Apple is not going to create a situation in which an external group can determine how or if they can be sued in court based on how overreaching they feel that day.

Also go check how many arbitration clauses exist in your ToS, just as an exercise. I'm all for banning arbitration clauses and allowing consumers recourse in actual courts. I don't believe we should have companies sign their death sentence prior to doing business, this raises the barrier to entry and results in even less competitors who have to do the same.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by JohnFen on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:20PM (#28176878)
> I don't know what else you can hope for.

I could hope for being able to trust that an intensely personal device such as a smartphone isn't something that I have to be constantly suspicious of.

Admittedly, that ship sailed a long time ago, but I could still hope.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by onethought on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:51PM (#28177082)
That ship was never in port. Apple control the hardware and software and always have.

You being able to trust them is a personal choice. It seems people are happy to trust companies that don’t talk about what they do with their data rather than the ones that do. Which, while understandable seems counter intuitive.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by noduerme on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:43AM (#28177986)
I keep hearing this argument and I don't understand it. The entire world would know within about 30 minutes if Apple ever pushed some malware update that did an end run around security and started grabbing files off people's hard drives. I don't trust them, I know they don't do that - and we would know pretty quickly if they did. Now they're saying they will.

Could they write and deploy something overnight that hoovered up everyone's data? Maybe on iOS, less so on OS X, but now they're going to ship with that capability. I don't understand how some people can't see the difference between "they could always push some nasty update," versus literally shipping hardware and software with a backdoor.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by black_puppydog on Saturday August 14, 2021 @04:43AM (#28179124)
> The entire world would know within about 30 minutes if Apple ever pushed some malware update that did an end run around security and started grabbing files off people's hard drives

But it would be very hard to spot new weights of the neural network and a new list of target hashes. These are pretty much guaranteed to change regularly as they retrain the embedding network and/or change the list of known target images. So it will be very hard if not impossible to see what they're searching for. That latest update could just add the ability to recognize CSAM pictures that had meme texts added to them. Or it could change the embeddings and target list to spot unlicensed posting of copyrighted still frames from movies. Or it could now retrieve any picture of people in police uniform. No way to know if you don't have a hunch and a targeted picture you want to test with.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by brongondwana on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:46AM (#28178630)
> I keep hearing this argument and I don't understand it. The entire world would know within about 30 minutes if Apple ever pushed some malware update that did an end run around security and started grabbing files off people's hard drives. I don't trust them, I know they don't do that - and we would know pretty quickly if they did.

Do you know this for certain about any vendor? If a company the size of Apple were pushing the same update to everybody, then it would likely be known about by the world pretty quickly. But... if a targeted signed update is sent to a handful of selected devices, that's harder for the world to find out about. It's risky, but it's definitely technically possible.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by noduerme on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @04:42AM (#28207586)
I'd like to respond to all three responses: We have the ability to monitor upstream traffic. If Apple takes away that ability to see what's being pushed on the device, we can look for suspicious traffic on the router or network level. I personally don't let any of my devices communicate with known Apple, Facebook, Microsoft or Adobe IP addresses, so it'll be interesting if they suddenly start popping up new addresses in order to do so.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by mordnis on Saturday August 14, 2021 @01:37AM (#28178321)
People do know the difference. The point of disagreement is in what you said firtst. You say that you know they don't currently ship with a backdoor, while others say you cannot possibly know that.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by gameswithgo on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:04PM (#28176788)
Quit talking down to people who don’t want Apple messing with their private party. Just accept that they have different opinions that you do.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by PixyMisa on Friday August 13, 2021 @10:45PM (#28177368)
> I don't know what else you can hope for.

You cannot be serious.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by strogonoff on Friday August 13, 2021 @10:33PM (#28177307)
> I don't trust them to manage the false positive rate.

Let’s compare:

— Apple’s market cap is more than twice of Facebook’s.

— Apple’s user base is less than half of Facebook’s. Even fewer use iCloud Photos (and much fewer upload more than the free 5 GB, shared across photos and other content).

— Facebook is entirely made of UGC with no storage limit for a given user, and their moderators have to review every bit of content to ensure the gore is away from advertising targets’ eyeballs (and, indeed, report CSAM). Apple only needs to review images that trigger multiple hash matches occurring within the same account.

Considering the above, my intuition is that Apple’s NeuralHash would have to be completely broken for a company this size to not be able to afford enough moderators to manage the false positive rate. I sincerely doubt they are so inept, and I’d be willing to live with the potentiality of an Apple employee peeking at a photo of mine once a year (me using Apple tech already implies I trust them enough, as I’d never be able to personally verify every privacy claim they make).

What is worth screaming about, and what is eroding my trust, is the fact that since 2019 Apple’s ToS (quietly changed, presumably, to accommodate this feature currently in the news) give them carte blanche for pre-screening any content that they deem potentially illegal. Unless they tighten up that phrasing to limit it to CSAM only, they’re allowing it to be used as a political prosecution tool.

Edit: Factual error, iCloud Photos does have a free tier.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by roenxi on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:55AM (#28178076)
Your argument here seems to be that Apple is adopting privacy policies that can be favourably compared to Facebook, and have taken a step closer to how Facebook handles data. I don't disagree at all. That is the problem I see here.

Anyone trusting Facebook with a level of access to their life comparable to a mobile phone is foolish. There is no way I would pay money for Facebook to control my phone.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by strogonoff on Saturday August 14, 2021 @09:41AM (#28180534)
I only explained why I think the parent comment’s doubt about Apple’s capability to screen false positives is most likely unfounded.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by bradknowles on Sunday August 15, 2021 @03:57AM (#28186973)
Capability != willingness

If it costs them too much money to have too many people personally looking over every single positive hit to make sure it’s not false, then they’re not going to do it even if they technically could.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by strogonoff on Sunday August 15, 2021 @08:47AM (#28188353)
Yes, and I tried to summarize why I think the cost of hiring enough people for this particular job is extremely unlikely to be more than a rounding error for Apple.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by 2Gkashmiri on Saturday August 14, 2021 @01:40AM (#28178338)
What are they achieving? Let's say there is a pedo who has cp on his iPhone. He is scared that apple might be after him but he also sees how this scanning only applies to cloud scanning so apple also gives this pedo option to not getting caught so what is the point ?

I live in a place where the government arrests you for having a VPN installed on the phone and labels you a terrorist outright. My phone is checking with physical frisking on the roadside and content critical of state gets automatic manhandling and trip to the police station where I am treated as a criminal.

How I see this as a problem not because I am not going to buy an iPhone in future, but because such ideology would be made normal. That is what is scaring me

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by nbzso on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:37AM (#28178578)
Exactly.

The technical implementation is trying to hide the fact that the design mojo of this system is an actual Backdoor for governments of the world to oppress, censure and do whatever they like.

The technical implementation is optimized towards minimizing the cost for Apple. That's why they scan on the device. And this decision is made with knowledge that in the near future "scanning" will be not limited only to hashes. Scanning and processing will be required for $Some_Cool_Functionality to work.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by eecc on Saturday August 14, 2021 @03:11AM (#28178713)
Like GMail?
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by nbzso on Saturday August 14, 2021 @03:40AM (#28178848)
Gmail is on the Google servers. Did you pay for Gmail? Did Gmail has access to your computer by default? So on.. What analogy are you making? When Gmail advertised "What is on your Gmail, stays on your Gmail"? :)
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by eecc on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:30PM (#28182902)
No, no analogy. GMail scans every email and every attachment. Server side because - of course - it’s an online service. It’s main feature is analyzing and indexing so it’s a direct example of a killer feature based on content analysis. Even spam filters are.

The same slippery slope applies there.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by wombatpm on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:50PM (#28177072)
According to Sir Pratchett: 1 in a million occurrences happen 99% of the time.
Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by PixyMisa on Friday August 13, 2021 @10:47PM (#28177380)
* Sir Terry Pratchett

It's Sir <firstname> or Sir <firstname> <lastname>.

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by tekknik on Saturday August 14, 2021 @09:29AM (#28180451)
I thought this was interesting so I looked up the naming conventions for knights. For the curious here’s some info:

https://www.geni.com/projects/Naming-Conventions-for-Knights...

Re:Apple Regrets Confusion over 'iPhone Scanning' by petre on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:02AM (#28178445)
It's also using the resources of your phone that you have paid for to scan and police your own content, much like AV software. I assume the hashes are either uploaded or stored on the phone.