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Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by lalaithion on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:44PM (#28122692)
> In other words, we must get, from a multitude of possible interpretations of the above question, the one and only one meaning that, according to our commonsense knowledge of the world, is the one thought behind the question some speaker intended to ask.

But, can humans do this? I think not; I still disagree with the author about what "Do we have a retired BBC reporter that was based in an East European country during the Cold War?", translated into code, means.

They write "Doing the correct quantifier scoping: we are looking not for ‘a’ (single) reporter who worked in ‘some’ East European country, but to any reporter that worked in any East European country"

My interpretation of this requirement is that they want a list of all the reporters who meet the criteria. However, I would probably write this query to return a boolean, not a list of reporters.

And even if my interpretation is wrong... well, my point is still correct, because I failed to extract the "the one and only one meaning" that the author intended from that sentence.

Even humans are only probably approximately correct.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by burnte on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:15PM (#28122991)
> Even humans are only probably approximately correct.

This is very true, more true than we realize. Notice how much more "could you repeat that?" we have with masks on. It's not JUST the mild muffling of the speaker's voice, it's not seeing their lips move. We're all lip readers to a small degree, and it helps inform our decoding to see the lips. Fff and th sound similar but look very different.

Even without that, think if your life, ever said "Waht was that? Oh, right..." then reply. At first you missed part of what they said (for various reasons), but you were able to "interpolate" the missing part from the context, and most of the time you get it right.

Our communication modes are lossy, and our brains make up for that to a large degree. That's the hole in natural language decoding, figuring out the hinting needed for an engine, because we're not totally aware of how we do it ourselves.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by emodendroket on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:33PM (#28123152)
That's a different problem, isn't it? That's more about transcription -- getting the speech into words -- than about what he's talking about, making sense of the words once you have them.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by drdeca on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:53PM (#28123309)
The two tasks are interconnected. The reasoning flows both ways.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by emodendroket on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:59PM (#28123781)
A model of language could help with transcription, but having a perfect transcription doesn't mean you can make heads or tails of what you've got.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by h0l0cube on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:30PM (#28123591)
Noise and lack of specificity are completely different problems, and the article concerns itself with the latter
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by jacobr1 on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:16PM (#28123894)
A noisy word might easily be guessed in context. But likewise a semantically ambiguous word might also be guessed due to other factors like the tone of the speaker, facial expressions or more.

I suspect the parent's point is that the disambiguation in both cases might be addressed with information encoded in the other. One can pattern match based on the context. I think some of the work in multimodal transformer models demonstrates this.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by h0l0cube on Monday August 09, 2021 @10:57PM (#28124742)
I think what you're saying is true, but I don't think this kind of ambiguity was really a feature of the examples in the article
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by burnte on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:39AM (#28129408)
I was replying specifically to the line in the comment I quoted, not the article as a whole.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by zR0x on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:34PM (#28124322)
We had to learn to collaborate before “language”.

Perhaps thinking language is a key aspect of consciousness is wrong.

Chomsky has said human languages themselves are just random sounds we’ve been polishing the meaning of.

So yeah I have no doubt a machine can sort them correctly if we tell it to. They mean what we want and see in them.

That’s hardly proving anything about consciousness. Just that a computer can sort and count syntax, and guess at meaning by frequency of relative placement.

It’s acting on English data sets. Not human biology.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by mcswell on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:22PM (#28135462)
"Chomsky has said human languages themselves are just random sounds we’ve been polishing the meaning of." I've read a lot of Chomsky, and I don't recall him ever saying anything like this. Can you provide a citation?

And I don't think "sorting" has anything to do with language.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by emodendroket on Monday August 09, 2021 @11:11PM (#28124811)
Theoretically, if we had a perfect understanding of human mechanisms of language, we could reproduce it in code. Of course we don't.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by zR0x on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:15AM (#28125085)
I don’t understand how we don’t?

I make sound snapping my fingers. Whistling.

Why is it so hard to accept mirror neurons fired when early humans heard birds and animals, each other’s grunts and over time we refined it?

Everyone has some capacity to refine and strengthen muscle. Why do we need some abstract meta-construct to explain where language comes from? It comes from us. Fleshy meat bags that mutate state over a short period then die.

Chomsky diagrams, conceptual organs and the like are useful for “being on the same page” in a particular context, but there’s no reason to believe language is a requirement for consciousness except our own propensity for romanticizing our existing.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by goatlover on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:02AM (#28128974)
Because other animals don't produce sounds which constitute abstract meaning that can be combined into sentences. Possibly a few birds and dolphins or whales might get close. But there's clearly something more going on in the brain than making sounds which contribute to word formation.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by zR0x on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:35AM (#28130119)
Sure there is more going on than we see on the surface.

Before neuroscience and modern imaging we needed to sit and imagine and theorize.

Now we don’t.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by mcswell on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:28PM (#28135517)
Neuroscience and brain imaging still don't tell us how language works--they're at a much to course level of granularity. Even if we could see every single neuron as it fired (which we can't), the volume of data would be overwhelming, far more than if you followed every transistor in a modern computer.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by goatlover on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:23PM (#28130775)
You don't think neuroscience involves theorizing? You think the neuroscientists can just image the neuronal activity and read it out in some complete scientific explanation?
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by zR0x on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:12PM (#28132215)
Yes. It’s emergent behavior of a physical universe that has no meaning. It just is.

“Meaning to us” is subjective. That’s how we have conflicting theories in many fields. Science isn’t about meaning. It’s about measuring how matter coalesces at various speeds relative to light.

I make noise because my biology “just has” properties to allow it given the other physical conditions.

Perfectly elegant theory based on the physical structure of reality alone. No ephemeral language organs.

Theory can quickly go from scientific observation to reinforced nonsense used to sell books and bond as species.

That’s fine, it’s how society works. It doesn’t mean anything to reality.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by goatlover on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:50PM (#28132662)
So when you talk about emergent behavior, physical universe and biology, you're just making noise.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by zR0x on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:25PM (#28134812)
Yep. Babies can add and subtract when they’re days old.

Can they write Shakespeare?

If human language is fundamental, how is it missing from the start? Are we learning language or muscle mechanics? Why can a word or phrase mean one thing in this country and nonsense in another? If language processing has a universal basis, why all the confusing variety and ignorant ideas? 1+1=2 everywhere because we can observe the physical process everywhere, because light, eyes, etc

Who cares?

Like I said back in the day we didn’t know that. We had to theorize these abstract schemes to establish something.

But like religion, doesn’t mean linguistics is building on something that means what we want it to.

Given how hard it is to learn language while arithmetic seems innate, how do we know emphasizing it’s value is leading us where we want?

It’s easier for me to see that long dead scientifically illiterate humans we inherited those ideas from were just stupid.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by mcswell on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:32PM (#28135580)
"If language processing has a universal basis, why all the confusing variety..." Because the universal processing mechanism provides lots of options for individual languages--the option for different words, obviously, but the option to use or not to use morphology (and lots of varieties of morphology), and different syntax rules, etc. etc.

To use an analogy, a computer chip provides a single instruction set at the machine language level--yet you can run a huge variety of computer languages on it: FORTRAN, LISP, Python, Prolog and so forth.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by emodendroket on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:18AM (#28127879)
I'm not talking about "where language comes from." I'm talking about a mechanical understanding of how humans produce and understand language.

Chomsky's idea goes deeper than "just random sounds," given his theory of universal grammar.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by zR0x on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:26AM (#28129982)
Religion shows we can create very detailed belief in ornate ideas that are scientifically nonsensical. It’s possible the concepts linguists seek to develop are similarly self reinforcing feedback loops that are meaningless to science.

There’s been an explosion in biological science since Chomsky became prominent. He even admits his work is abstract and to serve his ends. We may be putting more into his ideas due to his fame and infamy than we should.

Trial and error, social constraints on sounds and the mechanics of biology can explain it elegantly. What do the ornate theories and ephemeral organs provide except to satisfy “linguists” biological agency to create and imagine?

Linguistics came about in a much less scientifically aware era in human history. My money is on it going the way of religion; an abstraction that’s so orthogonal to advancing science we leave it behind.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by emodendroket on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:46AM (#28130266)
You can believe that if you like but it doesn’t bring us any closer to an answer.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by nonameiguess on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:26PM (#28123558)
I don't think you interpreted the sentence in question differently, just the nature of how it is being translated into a query. They're talking specifically of how to translate into a query over a quantified relational algebra. Relational algebra always operates on and return sets. I'm pretty sure the author here is still looking for a boolean, but you can't ask a relational query engine does a result exist? You can only get back sets. The further question of whether or not the set is nonempty is an extra feature probably built into most real-world implementations of query engines, but it's not part of relational algebra.

The actual problem they're identifying here is that of deciding how or whether to turn 'a' into a quantifier. Do we have 'any' would be less ambiguous, definitely an existential quantifier. Do we have 'a' depends on context, as it could mean one specific person and not be a quantifier at all, but I actually still disagree with the author here. I think they're right that English-speaking humans will unambiguously understand 'a' in this context to be a quantifier, but given that is possible at all, I don't see why a large language model can't. If it was actually being used to specify one person, the additional context would be in the sentence itself, as in 'do we have a reporter named X' or something like that. Given there is no additional qualification in the sentence, I'm pretty sure existing large language models can easily figure out what it means, and the only case in which they'd be wrong is if there were additional context outside of the sentence, but a human would be wrong too if all they heard was the sentence.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by emodendroket on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:32PM (#28123147)
Well, that's true, but I don't think we can pretend that computers are anywhere near as good at humans at extracting the intended meaning from human utterances.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by amirkdv on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:51PM (#28123291)
> But, can humans do this? I think not;

> Even humans are only probably approximately correct.

Fair point. But how about this:

It's true that what John would do with the sentence is technically an "approximation" of what Alice would do because they have slightly different understandings of correct behavior. However, for humans to do what they do, they still do build an absolutely correct model of meaning in their mind wrt their (subjective) notion of correctness.

This may sound like an obtuse play with words but the point is that to even attempt to do the right kind of reasoning in NLU, you need a different framework than PAC. You can't for example approximate whether "during the Cold War" qualifies "was based in" or qualifies "an Eastern European country". You just need to decide. And once you decide, you have an absolute correct interpretation, not an approximate one.

EDIT: wording.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by nonameiguess on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:37PM (#28123640)
This seems to be misunderstanding what PAC learnable means. It's saying that for parameters epsilon and delta, you can get an algorithm for learning a hypothesis that, with probability 1 - delta, has an average error rate less than epsilon, given some number of training samples polynomial in 1/delta and 1/epsilon.

This has nothing to do with the mental model. The language model doesn't have to spit out probabilities. It can use a simple thresholding function and spit out certainties. They just might be wrong, but a human's "certain" mental models might be wrong, too.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by qayxc on Monday August 09, 2021 @09:26PM (#28124289)
There's a very important difference, though: humans can and often do qualify their interpretation.

One major flaw of current PAC-based models is the inability to express certainty and being able to present the rationale behind their (lack of) confidence.

One crucial aspect of human language processing is the ability to question or interrogate oneself to adjust one's interpretation. During a dialog this can be done by actively asking for more context or confirmation.

So unlike current ML models, humans know that their interpretation/models might be wrong and can actively seek confirmation or correction.

A trivial example would be asking a digital assistant "What's the capital of Georgia?" There are two possible answers and there's no way of knowing what the "correct" one is without further context. So a human would likely either ask whether you mean the country of Georgia or the US state, or qualify their answer ("the capital of the country/the state capital is Tbilisi/Atlanta").

This is what GPT-J-6B returns:

  Q: What's the capital of Georgia?
  A: Atlanta
When given just the prompt "What's the capital of Georgia", GPT-J-6B also returns Atlanta and generates further text about the US state and its capital.

And it's not as if the model doesn't "know":

  Q: What is Tbilisi?
  A: Tbilisi is the capital of Georgia.
It's even more interesting when logic is involved:

  Q: If Albert is a pig and all pigs are blue, what colour is Albert?
  A: Albert is a blue pig.
I only asked for the colour, but close enough. Can GPT deal with ambiguity?

  Q: If Albert is a pig and all pigs are blue, is Albert happy?
  A: No.
Awesome! How about some common sense then:

  Q: If Alice is a dog and Bob just finished high school, can they have kids together?
  A: Yes, but they will have to get married first.
So yeah, GPT obviously has no actual language understanding. Bob having finished high school implies that he's a young human man while Alice is a dog. Humans and dogs can't have kids together.

But if the model doesn't understand language, why did it do so well on the logic test? In order to find out, I just asked :)

  Q: If Albert is a pig and all pigs are blue, why is Albert not happy?
  A: Because he is a pig.
Hm. So are all pigs unhappy then? Let's take them out of the equation and ask again:

  Q: If Albert is blue, is Albert unhappy?
  A: No, Albert is not unhappy.
Bingo! So the model only appeared to know the subtlety of "blue" having multiple meanings. It's as dumb as a rock and simply tried to match the tokens "is blue" against "is unhappy". Replacing "blue" with "pig" confirms this:

  Q: If Albert is a pig, is Albert unhappy?
  A: No, Albert is not unhappy. Albert is a pig.
Dad humour. Well, either that or just a dumb model capable of fooling us humans because we tend to interpret more intelligence into its replies than is actually there...

EDIT: in case you want to test this yourself (you might get different results, it's probabilistic after all):

https://6b.eleuther.ai

When using the Q/A-format, make sure not add a space after the "A:" prompt.

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by moyix on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:03AM (#28128998)
I find demos like yours hard to reason about because it is often the case that you can mess around with the prompt to get it to demonstrate understanding of things that it didn't seem to understand before. I wanted to see if it understood that humans and dogs can't have kids, and it does. Prompt is in [], generated text is in {}.

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

    [This is a question and answer series intended to demonstrate the logical reasoning capabilities of an AI system. The AI can understand ambiguity and will ask for more detail in such cases.

    Q: What's the capital of Georgia?
    A: That's ambiguous. Do you mean the country or the US state?

    Q: If Albert is a pig and all pigs are blue, what colour is Albert?
    A: Albert is a blue pig.

    Q: If Albert is a pig and all pigs are blue, is Albert happy?
    A: There is no logical connection between Albert's happiness and his color.

    Q: If Alice is a dog and Bob just finished high school, can they have kids together?
    A:]{ No.}

    [Q: Why can't they have kids together?
    A:]{ Because Alice is a dog and Bob just finished high school.}

    [Q: Why is that a problem?
    A:]{ Because Alice is a dog.

    Q: Why is that a problem?
    A: Because dogs can't have kids with humans.

    Q: Why can't dogs have kids with humans?
    A: Because dogs are animals and humans are humans.

    Q: Why are humans different from dogs?}
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

So does it understand after all? Or is trying different prompts a form of p-hacking here?

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by qayxc on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:56AM (#28130418)
> So does it understand after all? Or is trying different prompts a form of p-hacking here?

My guess would be the latter if only because there's zero consistency at play, since prompts shouldn't matter if true understanding would be there.

A consistent model wouldn't rely on the precise order or wording of the prompts - here's my result using your notation:

  [Q: Can humans and dogs have kids together?
  A:]{ This is an extremely touchy subject for some dog owners. The short answer is yes. The fact is that studies have shown that if a male and female dog are able to have a viable pregnancy, the offspring have a higher rate of survival. It is also important to note that the offspring are able to have puppies. This is important because it allows dogs to have kids of their own and increase the gene pool. }
Screenshot: https://ibb.co/Njg3BkC

So my money is on p-hacking. Maybe dropping the temperature or TOP-P helps, but last time I checked it didn't do much, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess?

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by qayxc on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:01PM (#28130482)
Turns out dropping the temperature didn't help either, so yeah, p-hacking for the most part:

https://ibb.co/KNDyvsQ

Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by djjdj on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:22PM (#28136053)
I disagree. Of course, it doesn't understand anything, it is a statistical language model. I also think that human jokes are mostly statistical in nature. That's why "Yes, but they will have to get married first" is funny. GPT was trained using texts from the Internet. It usually contains jokes and not logic predicates. At any prompt that has a structure of a joke, it will use (in the majority of the attempts) a pattern for a joke even if there is none. "If X is y, is X z?" is a typical joke pattern. If logical approach is applied in the future, it will still be derived from the statistics/reinforcement learning or something like that (the key word here is training/learning). The world is just too vast. If you want to have a resemblance of a logic model, you need a special dataset, but it will still just exploit patterns. It might be good enough, for practical use. It is arguable, if people mostly operate beyond patterns. Sorry if my text looks patronising or smth like that. I just assume.
Re:Machine learning won't solve natural language understanding by 2muchcoffeeman on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:57PM (#28123353)
Maybe your computer science brain kicked in took a CA interpretation of the question once they mentioned a query. Eg:

Q: Are you a man or a woman? A: Yes

Despite your interpretations of the article’s question. I bet you know which one is the more likely answer.