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Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by ncmncm on Friday August 06, 2021 @03:58PM (#28092063)
What I am looking for is prosecution.

Everything done in those programs was explicitly against numerous laws, and everyone involved knew it at the time. I see no reason not to indict every person who participated, at any level, with numerous felonies, along with everyone whose responsibility was to stop it, and didn't. There is way more than enough guilt to go around.

Prosecutions should particularly include CIA executive management.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by anonHash on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:35PM (#28092443)
And if we don’t do it, we are no better than nazis.

Whole lots of them were indicted and charged for the simple crimes not of their own but others. Applying the same standards to ourselves will result in similar indictments and justice.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by BitwiseFool on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:04PM (#28093294)
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they have blackmail on nearly all of the prominent politicians, prosecutors, and judges in the system. And what's worse, I bet you if any serious candidate runs on intelligence agency reform, they might suddenly have some really juicy dirt about them leaked online. Especially candidates from the younger generation. You could probably crucify someone in the public square with all the weird stuff in our browser histories.
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by cdstyh on Friday August 06, 2021 @09:18PM (#28094788)
Of course they have blackmail on all of them. Look at how poorly run the Epstein operation was. We saw how all of the senators sat silent, aware of what was going on, and did nothing.

But the real conspiracies you should care about are the ones that are obvious and boring. It's fun to think of crazy blackmail rings, which likely exist, but the others are more important. Like the government and politicians don't care at all about your health, they only care about maintaining power. The healthcare corporations don't care at all about your health, they only care about profit. Like the tax laws are purposefully so confusing so you have to pay money to TurboTax or someone else.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by kwere on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:27PM (#28093503)
Or "create" some dirt
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by cdstyh on Friday August 06, 2021 @09:17PM (#28094775)
>we are no better than nazis

One thing you need to recognize is there is no difference between you and the Nazis. If you were put back in Germany during that time you would have become a Nazi. You are not special. You are human. Go read the book "ordinary men." And read it from the perspective of the perpetrator, not the victim. You must be aware of your capability to horrific acts and work to make sure it doesn't happen.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by hatenberg on Saturday August 07, 2021 @03:44AM (#28096667)
I mean look at last year and tell me Americans wouldn't follow a charismatic leader to genocide
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by edmundsauto on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:30PM (#28093520)
Shark jumped! Scale matters, nuance matters. The scope of the two comparisons make them unequal.
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by tux3 on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:27PM (#28092342)
All of this is clearly extremely immoral.

There is no accountability, which is itself extremely immoral.

Both of these are worth stopping. Legality did not affect their decisions, neither should it ours, in this case.

Let's write the laws if we have to; this needs corrective action.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by ncmncm on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:30PM (#28092376)
We don't need to write new laws. We just need to execute on the laws that were, and are, already in place. The new US Attorney General could start issuing indictments immediately. Most of these laws have no Statute of Limitations deadline, so remain viable no matter how far back you go.
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by tux3 on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:35PM (#28092437)
If the laws have been successfully ignored, then something is severely dysfunctional with the current approach.

I don't think this can be explained just by "individual people being evil". You can't just designate a few scapegoats at the CIA, ruin their lives as punishment, and call the problem solved. There are severely wrong incentives in place.

We do need to write more laws. Or rather, your country does.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by ncmncm on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:40PM (#28092496)
"Laws are not being enforced! Let's make new laws to require that laws be enforced!"

What is wrong with this picture?

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by tux3 on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:45PM (#28092551)
Come on, a law is not being enforced, therefore it is not possible to make a better law?

Legislation happens to be the simplest fix when government agencies are acting horribly wrong. We can do other things, too, but we should start with the tried and true.

The current laws happen to be really bad and are not stopping anyone. I think we can do better. Law doesn't have to be bad and ineffective.

Here's one example of something you can do with the law: declare the CIA dissolved, reallocate the budget.

Is that the best thing we could do? I genuinely can't say. But that would be a law that cannot be ignored.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by dshiwry799 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @12:08AM (#28095617)
Nobody with the power to make or enforce laws over the CIA have any interest in doing anything about this. The CIA is on their side, and they like it that way, both because the CIA is a useful tool to use against their enemies and victims, and because the CIA is a dangerous enemy with a lot of experience in removing people from power.
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by michaelmrose on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:22PM (#28092896)
If the issue is the unwillingness to enforce any part of existing law then no law that you could possibly write will stop people from continuing to willfully ignore the law.
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by tux3 on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:31PM (#28092989)
I don't think it's unwillingness to enforce, so much as laws that happen to be really hard to enforce in this particular case.

I think the reason for that is the complete lack of transparency and accountability.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by V_Terranova_Jr on Saturday August 07, 2021 @09:02AM (#28098290)
Yes, there's a high likelihood we could make improvements in the laws.

No, that would not address the reasons why accountability in law does not yield accountability in practice. ncmncm is right.

The Executive branch is not going to police itself seriously unless there is huge public outcry. Americans' outrage tends to rise and fall at the tempo of (so-called) news cycles.

Even if parts of the Executive branch wanted to pursue accountability, they would run into a hard wall due to claims of "National Security" by the intelligence community. You see how much it took for Daniel Jones and how much he still didn't get. It would require Executive branch orders at the highest levels that the intelligence community must cooperate, and sustained policing under those highest authorities to deal with the intelligence orgs when they try to find ways to argue and dissemble about complying with what they were ordered to do. Even then, staff might just outright commit illegal acts knowing that there will never really be consequences so long as you can claim "National Security". The Executive branch is not going to want to air any of this dirty laundry.

Colby at the CIA tried to be more forthcoming with Congress and that was part of what led to his being let go from his position as DCI.

The Judicial branch isn't going to take action autonomously.

The greatest likelihood of any accountability would have to come via the Legislative branch (Congress) and public outcry. There is an insufficient level of backbone among the people in power in Congress, because it's incredibly easy to be attacked on this politically when it comes to "National Security". There is this incompetent populist mindset that conflates intent with actions. So if the intelligence community or DoD was trying "defend America against those that would seek to harm her or her people", as many will say, you will find no shortage people who wrap themselves in the flag for political or media exposure benefit and assail any politician that would dare to criticize the intelligence community, DoD, etc. Because if they have our best interests at heart, who cares how they go about their business, right? A vocal segment of the populace will lap this up and say that we should be treating America's enemies even more harshly, not kowtowing to emasculated Liberal desires to give terrorists baskets full of daisies.

Also, it will be virtually impossible to air the incontrovertible proof of wrongdoing in the open. No matter what the level of wrongdoing, the highest priority will be placed on not damaging ongoing intelligence operations, methods, sources, and active personnel. As well, there will be considerations associated with airing information that would embarrass or otherwise cause blowback to cooperating partners, like other countries. So you will end up exposed to reports written by people who have seen the stuff that needs the right clearances, but the conclusions will all be more vague and high level and you will also have congresspeople who "disagree with the report", also in a vague way (either because of the political benefits or because they belong to the tribe that thinks the end justifies the means), thereby reducing its credibility and impact.

There has to be a critical mass in Congress that can survive the political fallout to try to do something about this problem, and there has to be a presidential administration that also badly wants to do something about this even if they get skewered publically. That's unfortunately a very tall order.

And yes, writing this all out depresses and saddens me.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by ectopod on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:32PM (#28092402)
They should have been prosecuted. Instead, Obama gave a blanket pardon for everyone involved and the US has threatened sanctions against the ICC if they attempt a prosecution.
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by sofixa on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:29PM (#28092970)
> the US has threatened sanctions against the ICC if they attempt a prosecution

It's worse than that, they have sanctioned ICC prosecutors and there's a law allowing the US to invade The Hague if a war criminal of theirs is under detention or trial there.

It's not even vague, it's blatant hypocrisy and refusal to adhere to international treaties and war crimes definitions ( which the US itself helped shape, but has never applied to itself).

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by ncmncm on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:36PM (#28092452)
Obama did not issue anything binding on future administrations, unlike formal pardons. He just expressed his intention not to act as the law required.

A good first step would be to stand aside and let ICC prosecute, which even actual pardons would not block.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by themolecularman on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:50PM (#28093167)
> A good first step would be to stand aside and let ICC prosecute, which even actual pardons would not block.

Who would they prosecute? Obama or Bush?

It seems like the implication people have when talking about this is that the CIA agents or CIA directors should be charged.

From my perspective, would they have done any of these illegal activities if they hadn't been given the green-light from the top?

If Bush/Obama said we will let the ICC prosecute, would any CIA agent/director have done it? Probably not.

I'm not disagreeing about prosecution, I'm just wondering where the buck stops and where the true responsibility lies.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by ncmncm on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:02PM (#28093274)
We need no buck. "Following orders" is not an excuse. So, everybody up and down the line who knew they were involved in illegal activity is guilty of that, and also of conspiracy. Many are also guilty of obstruction of justice, which is normally punished more harshly than the crime covered up.

Obama halted the torture program, but could be prosecuted for other crimes involving use of drone strikes on civilians, along with underlings who organized or performed the strikes.

Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by lazide on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:39PM (#28093058)
My guess? In exchange for Osama bin Laden, he agreed to turn a blind eye.
Re:The CIA’s outsourced torture is lost to history by peakaboo on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:03PM (#28092710)
It will never happen.