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Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by jl2718 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:14PM (#28056799)
Summary: entry-level jobs dried up, so people are going to law school instead. Also political motivations.

Editorial: More lawyers make the country more complicated and less competitive. We need more and better people going into industrial and medical skilled trades. Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. On the other hand, I think basic legal education would probably have been more relevant than almost anything I’ve ever learned in a classroom, and law school might have been worth it just for my own purposes. Minus the political activism of course, which I guess is center stage now.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by otterley on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:30PM (#28056906)
> Think CAD/CAM, not plumber.

Have you tried to hire a skilled plumber, landscaper, carpenter, or mason in a major city lately? There's a massive tradesperson shortage.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by qeternity on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:35AM (#28059421)
You can thank the unlimited backstop of federal student loans for people to study at any subpar school in any number of useless degrees.

This has siphoned off the historical supply of labor in trade schools.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:58AM (#28059938)
You can also blame society for undervaluing tradesmen. If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:02AM (#28060525)
> If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them.

Maybe for some types of frontline workers, but certainly not for skilled tradesman, who are making bank right now and have for at least the past 20 years since I've lived in my current city. And in terms of "refuse to respect", honestly I think it's the opposite: supply has been so high for skilled tradesmen in my area that it is customers who have consistently been disrespected. I can't tell you the number of times I've hired a plumber, AC guy or other worker, confirmed a time, and then that person just doesn't show up, or at best you get a call 15 minutes before saying they're canceling. It always baffled me how these businesses could give such poor service (I mean, a lot of this type of work is referral based), but it's because demand is just so high they can do that.

Of course it's not everyone, and once I found a good, reliable plumber I hung on for dear life, but the lesson I've learned is that workers follow same incentives of supply and demand as employers do.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:43AM (#28060907)
Ask yourself this though: why aren't people going to trade schools more often? If it's such a high demand career, with such reasonable pay, then surely it should attract talent; especially when one considers the extreme affordability of trade school in comparison to university education.

But we don't see this, why? I posit that it is because people who work trades are looked down on socially. People point at the mechanic, or plumber, or HVAC technician and say to their kids "you have to go college so you don't end up like that guy".

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by lizknope on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:53AM (#28061689)
People I know look at restaurant workers and retail store employees as the people you say "You go to college so you don't end up like them."

I would never say that about mechanics, plumbers, and HVAC technicians. They have skills that I respect and value. I often ask them what was wrong and their analytic and problem solving skills often impress me.

I got a new HVAC system with a 2 stage compressor. Everything was working fine until the summer when it would shut off cooling just when it got hot even when the thermostat was saying it was cooling.

The technician determined that the system worked fine in "low" mode and when the thermostat went into "high" mode the enter system shut off.

He traced the thermostat wire through the crawl space and found a splice. 20 years earlier when the house was built someone spliced the cable and only spliced together a few wires that were needed for that simple system. He connected all of them and now the 2 stage compressor works great.

It took him an hour of debug going back and forth measuring stuff with a multimeter inside and outside.

I was impressed.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:48AM (#28062410)
> People I know look at restaurant workers and retail store employees as the people you say "You go to college so you don't end up like them."

That certainly happens even more often, but within that statement is also an implication that one must go to college to avoid that kind of work. And why is that kind of work so bad? Mostly because they have to deal with people who treat them like garbage because they think so little of them.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by lizknope on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:36PM (#28063866)
Well I don't treat them like garbage. I treat them like human beings but sometimes I wonder about how a 40 year old person ended up working in a fast food place.

I know there are lots of reasons and many of them are outside of the control of the person.

I should really change my statement to "Learn some skills whether a 4 year university degree or technical / vocational / community college so you don't end up working fast food or retail."

Why is that work so bad? The low pay is the main reason. You can learn the skills required in a few hours or days. I feel like their managers and employers treat them worse than the customers.

I am absolutely in favor for more education and financial assistance for higher education. The low end jobs are the first to be automated away. Fast food and warehouse robots are going to get more popular and I already use the self checkout line 80% of the time.

Jobs for people without specialized skills are going to get rarer in the future.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by NonContro on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:59AM (#28061078)
One of the major advantages of being a small businessperson is rarely talked about: the ability to minimise taxes.

You can live in your workplace, have a company car, company utilities, company equipment. Some customers will pay you cash. You can easily allocate business income to your spouse or children (if you live in a country without combined income taxes). You can buy products at wholesale rates.

When you're just an employee, you usually have very few of these tax optimisation opportunities.

The other factor is that the education system is dominated by people with university degrees (ie. teachers), who consciously or not direct their students to pursue the same lifestyle and career values as them.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by paconbork on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:16PM (#28062797)
I don't think people generally point to tradesmen as someone you don't want to be, but rather the trades are never considered because a four year college degree is seen as an absolute prerequisite for class standing.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by HelloFellowDevs on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:25AM (#28062112)
My parents steered me away from the thought of going into the trades due to the idea of working with your body/hands vs working with your mind. More or less saying "how will you be able to find work when you're physically ill/injured", of course this can happen to the mind too. For a lot of people at least the body goes before the mind does. Plus for some time my parents were in unskilled trades so maybe that was also an angle.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:14PM (#28067124)
The main reason is just because it's hard. For all the talk you see on HN about boring office jobs, the physicality of a job like plumbing can really put a ton of wear and tear on your body by the time you're in your 50s.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by JohnWhigham on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:24AM (#28062081)
This one's massive, and probably the biggest culprit. I was fortunate enough to be in an area where you could choose the default high school (college prep), or be bussed to the regional vocational school where you alternate doing one week of academic work and one week of your trade. And of course, those that went to the vocational school were looked down on as being dumber. And once you're in the college prep high school, it's just always looming over you: what colleges you looking at? What major do you want to study? What are your safety schools and reach schools?? You are looking at colleges right now while you're only 15 and a freshman and have no idea what the fuck you want to do for the rest of your life right???

And then that's how you land up with the only 25% of kids that enter college actually graduating. So many kids who aren't sure what they want to do (or just straight up aren't cut out for that kind of work) are shoved into college, rack up debt, drop out with nothing to show for it, and don't know where to go next.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by jl2718 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:16PM (#28062780)
There was only one kid in my middle school that went to the regional tech school. His parents were both PhDs and he got into MIT. That’s probably an outlier, because many if not most of his classmates were only there because they got expelled from their local school. Regardless, he said it was awesome.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by jl2718 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:25PM (#28062923)
I hired a plumber who took a sledgehammer to my bathroom and the demanded 10x the money to fix it.

I’ve hired contractors that ripped out all the copper and left.

I lived in a house where the owner had hired a landscaper that got paid but didn’t show up for a year.

Nobody needs more than a month of training and a YouTube account to do these jobs. The problem is not skill; it’s trust. Low skill jobs unfortunately attract a lot of unsavory characters, and push out good people.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by BeFlatXIII on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:51AM (#28058743)
A folksy saying to compliment your editorial: the only lawyer in town drives a Prius; once a competitor moves in, they both drive Bentleys.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by cblconfederate on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:32AM (#28061442)
You can import CAD/CAM people on the cheap, but lawyers is pretty hard.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by lizknope on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:55AM (#28061716)
I know a few companies that are outsourcing legal stuff. The internet makes it easy.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by bississippi on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:57PM (#28057105)
Where I live plumbers make more than an average software engineer. Owner operator plumbers make close to half a million a year. And don’t get me started on Plumbers operating a min of 5 trucks they make atleast a million and half. I know this because my brother law is a plumber.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by phamilton on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:14AM (#28057234)
I'm in California and I had a water leak on the property that cost me $500 on my water bill. My water provider offered a credit for the overage if I can prove that I fixed it. A local plumber charged me $400, provided me with the exact paperwork to send in, and I got a $500 credit.

What a wild economy. I have no complaints, I understand why it works that way. And all my plumber had to do was smile, provide a bit of customer service, and repair one pipe.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by llimos on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:18AM (#28058206)
Plumbers produce real value, i.e. the total value of the world is higher after they finish their work. This cannot be said for lawyers.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by cudgy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:07AM (#28058501)
Or most software developers.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by ethbr0 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:02AM (#28058812)
Software developers make the world a better place.

Unfortunately, most of they ways in which they do so were already done in the 70s. It's just repeating that work in more modern languages / stacks.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by bart_spoon on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:12AM (#28060047)
Some software developers make the world a better place. Many produce software that ultimately not that useful, and in the worst case scenario, actively harmful to society. Is the world a better place because of Apple, Amazon, or Google? Eh, you can make an argument either way. Is it a better place because of Facebook or Twitter? Unambiguously no.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by HPsquared on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @06:20AM (#28140239)
That may be true, but the same could also be said about plumbing.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by llimos on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:44AM (#28059471)
That's an interesting question.

Some software is valuable according to this definition, e.g. Google search. Some is not, e.g. Google ad algorithms.

Software is an enabler. It depends what it's enabling.

Would be interesting to know the proportions.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by fighterpilot on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:36AM (#28062244)
To clarify a piece of what you've said, devs working on Google ad algorithms are valuable to companies who are advertising. Your point is a higher level one that what these companies are buying from Google isn't of net value to society overall, even if it is of value to them.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by cudgy on Friday August 06, 2021 @04:52PM (#28092609)
Google search may be useful in the present time it is used, but Google logs people’s searches and effectively spies on the most personal thoughts and ideas people have. This could prove to be dangerous to those that are considered to be outside of mainstream society, etc.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by 908B64B197 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:34PM (#28067324)
> Where I live plumbers make more than an average software engineer

But the plumbers all use Google and have iPhones... But they aren't getting any stock from the companies making these as part of their comp package.

Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:04AM (#28057153)
What's a plumber do with 5 trucks?? You can't drive more than one, right?!
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by jessewmc on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:06AM (#28057167)
A plumber with five trucks isn't so much a plumber anymore as a business owner employing five other plumbers.
Re:Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since d... by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:35AM (#28057917)
And the reality of that is almost certainly not as rosy as you are being led to believe.