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Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by pavlov on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:31AM (#28046909)
The downsides listed are just cryptocurrency lobbyist talking points.

“Require new surveillance of everyday users of cryptocurrency;”

What everyday users? There’s nothing you can do with this stuff except speculate, gamble and build obfuscated Ponzis.

”Force software creators and others who do not custody cryptocurrency for their users to implement cumbersome surveillance systems or stop offering services in the United States;”

Not offering these services seems like a positive outcome.

”Create more honeypots of private information about cryptocurrency users that could attract malicious actors;”

Losing your money to malicious actors is a standard part of the crypto experience already. Endless scams and ransomware don’t seem to worry the author.

”Create more legal complexity to developing blockchain projects or verifying transactions in the United States—likely leading to more innovation moving overseas.”

Ah, blockchain innovation, which is somehow so vital to the shining future of mankind, yet has utterly failed to produce anything of technological or economic value with the billions already invested. Overseas sounds like a fine place to continue this pseudoinnovation charade.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by dannyw on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:41AM (#28046961)
A vague, extraordinarily broad, and difficult to interpret statement is absolutely a disaster.

You might not like cryptocurrency, but this is akin to the infrastructure bill having a provision classifying anyone "responsible for and regularly providing any service effectuating encryption of information" as a munitions-dealer -- with wide downstream implications on (1) open source software, and libraries like OpenSSL, etc, and (2) vague enough to cover pretty much every webmaster who uses TLS certificates.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by pydry on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:40AM (#28047623)
Disaster for whom? If the side effect of this ambiguity is a mass exodus from crypto who loses out apart from speculators and the black market?

I'd feel a lot more sympathetic if crypto uses cases didnt predominantly fall into those two camps (as is the case for cryptography).

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by miracle2k on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:57AM (#28048162)
Ambiguous laws are intrinsically harmful, so it is all citizen who lose out, who will be living under a legal regime that keeps on gradually degrading as people forget the principles it was built on.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by pydry on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:21AM (#28048808)
I agree that ambiguous laws are a bad idea in general. I still don't see how all citizens lose out when most are explicitly unaffected though.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by b0tzzzzzzman on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:08AM (#28049364)
First they came for 'taxes' then they came for 'guns' and then they came for anything they wanted.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by CPLX on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @08:39AM (#28048442)
Here’s an example of an ambiguous law:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nybble41 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:57PM (#28054097)
The 1st Amendment is extremely clear. The only ones calling it "ambiguous" are those looking to invent exceptions to it out of whole cloth. "What, 'no law' whatsoever? Clearly the authors and the representatives who passed this amendment couldn't have possibly objected to my reasonable proposals, so there must be some subtle nuance of interpretation at odds with the perfectly plain and unambiguous language."
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by CPLX on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:44PM (#28055173)
If you think the definitions of religion or the press aren’t ambiguous I don’t know what to tell you, and that’s before we get into the exact meaning of the concept of “establishment”
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nybble41 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:20PM (#28055469)
In the context in which the text was written the meaning was perfectly obvious, since it was directed at exactly the sorts of abuses they'd just finished fighting a war over. "An establishment of religion", for example, referred to establishing an official state religion. "The freedom of speech, and of the press" was literally about speaking to each other and owning and utilizing printing presses—the use of "the press" as a general term for journalists didn't start until around 1921[0].

It's really much simpler than people make it seem.

[0] https://www.etymonline.com/word/press

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by trasz on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:08AM (#28047427)
Developing Open Source software is not “services”, unless you have a customer paying for it.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nybble41 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:01PM (#28054158)
Plenty of open source projects receive funding for their work. Just running ads on your site to defray hosting expenses can be enough to get you classified as a commercial service these days.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by trasz on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:56AM (#28059925)
Sure, but by “service” I mean “service to someone”, not “a commercial service”. It’s about who you work for and what for, not whether you provide a commercial service at all.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by asah on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:31AM (#28047567)
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by the_real_sparky on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:21AM (#28047894)
To be fair, proof of work crypto does impact electric infrastructure, although it’s difficult to pin that on the negative or positive side of neutral because the cheapest electric rates possible include provisions for demand response / shut offs. The biggest operations will generally be trying to negotiate the cheapest rate possible, but that’s not a given. Proof of work very much affects the generation side (generation costs for all customers, greenhouse gas emissions, etc) in the net negative though. The only exception to this would be on off-grid installations or installations on >100% renewable networks with complete demand response for the crypto and no other alternatives for exporting that power elsewhere. Even then it’s creating useless waste heat, but meh. For what it’s worth, I’ve owned Bitcoin and others in the past but now that I’ve had to deal with the impacts directly in my industry I’m definitely over my infatuation.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by whitepaint on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:08AM (#28049355)
> What everyday users? There’s nothing you can do with this stuff except speculate, gamble and build obfuscated Ponzis.

...

https://compound.finance/

https://pooltogether.com/

https://polymarket.com/

https://app.uniswap.org/

https://rarible.com/

https://axieinfinity.com/

...

Anyone who has access to the internet can use the above (and it's just few examples, more on https://ethereum.org/) without any arbitrary restrictions set by any governments.

How can you look at these things and not be in awe?

And how on earth can somebody be so confident about something yet know so little about it?

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by enlyth on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:12PM (#28050959)
The websites you all listed are just vehicles for further speculation and gambling.

Gaining interest on cryptocurrencies by providing liquidity so other people can speculate on cryptocurrencies, prediction markets (literally gambling on cryptocurrencies), NFTs (speculating on infungible cryptocurrency tokens), and some virtual game where you can further speculate on NFTs with a touch of gamification.

Nothing seems to tie into any real world usefulness, everything ties back into itself where the core is always 'will the value of my internet coins go up'.

The only single useful thing cryptocurrencies can do is you can buy drugs from the darkweb, semi-anonymously, or maybe completely if you use something like Monero.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by jondwillis on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:17PM (#28051012)
You could borrow a stablecoin like USDC with collateral on a platform like AAVE, trade the USDC for dollars or another currency that is accepted, and use it to buy a house, car, etc, without anyone's approval or a bank being involved.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by enlyth on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:36PM (#28051213)
I'm curious because I don't know how this works exactly, how much collateral do you have to put up to borrow something on a decentralized exchange? If it's less than 100%, how is it enforced that I ever return the money, and if it's more, why would I borrow if I already have the money I need? Asking in good faith.

Also if you plan to buy a house, a bank can give you a mortgage over let's say 25 years where information about your identity, income and credit history is used as a risk assessment, and the loan is backed by the whole existing legal system where your home can be repossessed if you fall behind on payments. You can get a LTV ratio of even 95% in some cases.

How would this work in a decentralized way ever? On the other hand, if you already have, let's say 500k in the bank to buy the house outright, why would you involve cryptocurrency in the transaction. The counterparty is going to probably want to receive their money dollars in a bank somewhere, are you sure that a bank is not going to ask any questions when you do your magic conversions to dollars from crypto and try to send someone 500k?

This doesn't integrate into the real world well unless the other person selling wants to receive crypto already and is ready to take upon all the risks themselves that transferring, accepting and holding cryptocurrency entails. At that point you don't need to do the conversion magic anyway.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by almostkorean on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:59PM (#28051492)
It's all over-collateralized loans. So if I want $50k cash to buy a car, I can deposit $100k of ETH to borrow $50k USDC. As ETH price changes, your loan has a "health" score and if it gets below a certain threshold you can get liquidated if you don't start repaying the loan.

The reason for involving crypto in this scenario is so you don't have to sell your crypto assets. This will be more useful going forward as platforms allow users to use NFTs as collateral for example.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by notJim on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @02:33PM (#28052488)
What would be the purpose of this with USDC though? Since you have to put in more than the loan amount as collateral, aren't you just paying to access your own money? For non-stablecoins that you don't want to sell, it makes more sense, although it seems risky.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nprz on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:25AM (#28049574)
Because the original commenter is not arguing in good faith. There are countless examples of crypto and bitcoin helping civilians escape tyrannical states, conveniently non were mentioned.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by foepys on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:36AM (#28050469)
I read this all the time but have never seen proof of this. Can somebody please name a few if they are so countless?
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nprz on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:58AM (#28050792)
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by penultimatename on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:41AM (#28050528)
Countless examples, yet you failed to name a single specific example.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nprz on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:46AM (#28050622)
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by notJim on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @03:38PM (#28053198)
Most of these things are either likely to be fads (NFTs) or just ways to fuel the speculation and ponzi schemes (compound and uniswap.) Theoretically lending could be used for doing things in the real world I guess, but it seems like once the money is in crypto, it just sloshes around creating more crypto. The betting market is an interesting one, I hadn't seen that. IMO DAOs and DeFi are interesting, but I haven't seen it have a big effect outside of crypto yet.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by MelonTree on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:54AM (#28049189)
> Ah, blockchain innovation, which is somehow so vital to the shining future of mankind, yet has utterly failed to produce anything of technological or economic value with the billions already invested.

Cryptocurrencies have allowed me to feed my family back home in Lebanon, in a way that would simply not be possible with out it. I'm not sure if you don't think this happens on a daily basis, or is not of economic value.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by colechristensen on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:41AM (#28046958)
>has utterly failed to produce anything of technological or economic value with the billions already invested. Overseas sounds like a fine place to continue this pseudoinnovation charade.

One quiet place where blockchain makes sense is shared ledgers between large financial institutions, JPMorgan for example is working a lot on this. It's not about privacy or usurping the social order or whatever imaginative solution to all of society's problems that gets attached to so many other things... it's just a better API between institutions for transferring ownership between themselves, which is a frequent and often awkward (and ancient) tech.

With blockchain you don't need a third party, with big institutions "theft" doesn't make sense. If there is an error and a transaction needs to be reversed it's in everybody's interest to do so and expected to happen from time to time and likely a built in feature.

Simplifying way back end transactions between banks is pretty nice... for banks, but pretty uninteresting to most people because it's just about settling daily balances between institutions and the like which is really boring.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by pjc50 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:11AM (#28047826)
> One quiet place where blockchain makes sense is shared ledgers between large financial institutions,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Services_Directive

Usually refusing to share information or API is a business choice. Besides, once you have a closed group, you just have signed transactions ("permissioned blockchain"), and can (must) ditch proof-of-waste. So it barely resembles what people normally think of as blockchain and starts to look more like signed git commits.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by user-the-name on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @08:33AM (#28048394)
It's a worse API. In that situation, you have trusted parties. You don't need a blockchain, and the absolutely crippling tradeoffs it brings with it.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by colechristensen on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:35AM (#28057576)
Sometimes the “API” in these circumstances is CSV files sent by FTP nightly over private fiber links.

When all parties are trusted there aren’t necessarily any crippling tradeoffs, you get mathematically provable ledgers with no need for a central trusted clearinghouse.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by pavlov on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:26AM (#28047547)
This use case wouldn’t be affected in any way by the proposed legislation because banks already know their customers.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by yjftsjthsd-h on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:15AM (#28049447)
> What everyday users? There’s nothing you can do with this stuff except speculate, gamble and build obfuscated Ponzis.

I literally know someone who pays their rent with zcash. It is possible to use it as, y'know, currency.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nprz on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @10:11AM (#28049411)
Bitcoin is a technology that improves individual freedoms. No institution can prevent you from holding or transferring bitcoin. When you buy a bitcoin you can remain confident there will never be more than 21 million btc minted, btc will never become diluted.

Claiming the BTC protocol is without utility is completely disingenuous.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by goatmeal on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:13AM (#28050163)
a big chunk of the population believes that the government should have a total monopoly over the issuance of currency and they should be able to control every aspect of how it gets accounted for and who should facilitate transactions, in order to prevent crime. these people have a complete disregard for individuals who are treated unfairly by the financial system. when some people are shut out of their access to banking and payment processing despite not doing anything illegal, and when others are unable to do business due to too much administrative overhead imposed by financial regulation, their suffering is excusable because crime is being prevented.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by acdha on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @01:13PM (#28051679)
> Bitcoin is a technology that improves individual freedoms. No institution can prevent you from holding or transferring bitcoin.

This is a common sales pitch but it's relying on the listener not thinking about the problem. Any government can prevent you from using Bitcoin by blocking your transactions: every transaction requires a network exchange and the same infrastructure which is used for things like the Great Firewall can trivially stop that as well.

More importantly, however, that's a hypothetical situation for most people here. The realistic threats to think about stem from the difference between you being able to _make_ a transaction and not have any consequences for doing so. Bitcoin requires you to publish a full log of your transactions for your government to see — if you don't report transactions, skip paying taxes, or conduct a transfer with someone on a blacklist, they can use the public ledger as a signed confession.

Every transaction you make can be used to deanonymize you, and that sharply limits the use of Bitcoin because there's no demand for random numbers — only real things you can do with them, which require physical presences which governments control. If your goal is to transfer money and flee the country, never coming back and writing off any friends or family left behind, Bitcoin might help. If your usage is anything else, you're just counting down until you or someone you interact with has their data compromised.

Now, maybe you've also heard the marketing claims about mixers. Think about that a bit more carefully and you'll also realize the problems which make those unsafe in practice: beyond the expense, you're trusting the mixer operator not to be compromised, simply having any transaction linked to one is evidence that you're doing something illegal, and you have to worry about other users of the service using it for crimes which are serious enough to get more investigation than you personally are worth and proving that you were not knowingly helping those people.

If you were running the secret police somewhere, one of the best things you could do would be set up Bitcoin exchange and mixer services and promote them in your country so you'd have people giving you signed evidence of things you probably weren't even aware of.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by gruez on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @01:29PM (#28051828)
>which is used for things like the Great Firewall can trivially stop that as well.

I don't know how effective you think the great firewall is, but it's definitely not effective enough to "trivially stop" 500 bytes of banned data from being transferred.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by acdha on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @01:37PM (#28051928)
It's an always-on network transferring non-trivial amounts of data. Do you really think it's that hard to block port 8333 and a list of known hosts? No, it won't be perfect but if it's not easy to use with standard clients few people are going to deal with it — especially with the knowledge that less than perfect attempts to do so is publishing a clear sign of intent.

For a repressive government, that means that most people will steer clear which makes it easier to filter since you don't have a large volume of innocent traffic complicating analysis and by creating a great mechanism to get people to install spyware by circulating news underground of a great client which is preconfigured to evade the filter.

If this is your threat model, cash is much safer.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by gruez on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @02:15PM (#28052285)
>It's an always-on network

you only need to be "on" to make transactions. In the case of sending transactions, you only need to broadcast the transaction itself (500 bytes), with no further traffic needed. The blockchain data is also broadcast via a satellite: https://www.blockstream.com/satellite/

>transferring non-trivial amounts of data

SPV clients require very little traffic, on the order of tens of kilobytes. Full nodes only need to download under 2MB worth every 10 minutes, or 3.33 KB/s. That's very easy to sneak under the radar if need be.

>Do you really think it's that hard to block port 8333 and a list of known hosts

good thing you can run bitcoin as a tor hidden service.

>If this is your threat model, cash is much safer.

Except you need to be in-person to make transactions.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by nprz on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @01:50PM (#28052032)
You say all this, but where are all the thousands of silk road/DNM vendor/ransomware arrests? The gov has the tech to deanonymize these transactions, but fails to make any arrests?
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by dbsmith83 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @03:28PM (#28053094)
> Ah, blockchain innovation, which is somehow so vital to the shining future of mankind, yet has utterly failed to produce anything of technological or economic value

Do you know what economic value means? If there was no economic value, then it wouldn't be used.

Your comment sounds like one that will be hilarious in the not-so-distant future. It's analogous to the whole trope "X technology is useless" or "People will never need more than X amount of memory" type of thing.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by Andrew_nenakhov on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:38PM (#28051226)
> What everyday users? There’s nothing you can do with this stuff except speculate, gamble and build obfuscated Ponzis.

Lie. I can receive payments from my foreign customers in a matter of 30 minutes instead of many days via traditional banking services or Draconian fees line PayPal. I can also safely donate to anti-Putin opposition.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by aww_dang on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:11AM (#28047830)
Have you considered the possibility that existing regulation is one of the barriers to use of cryptocurrencies?

Is it possible that there are uses for cryptocurrencies you have not iterated over in your comment?

If I suggest that sub-cent microtransactions are a use of cryptocurrency that I find useful and have implemented in a hobby project, I predict the response will be, "but that's not wildly popular, speculation and gambling are widespread!"

I don't accept that these widespread uses justify prohibition or over regulation. Even if we accept that these popular uses are worthy of prohibition, other developers should not be punished or unduly burdened because of the actions of the majority. This brings us back to the first point, if regulatory burdens are too high, individuals won't innovate.

>There’s nothing you can do with this stuff except speculate, gamble and build obfuscated Ponzis.

>Not offering these services seems like a positive outcome.

>has utterly failed to produce anything of technological or economic value

This reads as, "Prohibit everything I personally dislike or can't fully appreciate"

>Overseas sounds like a fine place to continue this...

"If you don't like it leave the USA", this ignores the chilling effects the US's regulations have around the globe.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by davidcbc on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:15AM (#28048733)
> Have you considered the possibility that existing regulation is one of the barriers to use of cryptocurrencies?

Cryptocurrency has been largely unregulated since its inception and it's almost exclusively used for speculation and criminal activity. The barrier to use of cryptocurrency is that it provides nothing of value outside of those use cases, not regulation.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by aww_dang on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:55AM (#28049204)
Look at the regulations already imposed on exchanges. Consider the legal and tax liabilities businesses take on by involving themselves with cryptocurrencies. Some nations have outright banned exchange of their national currency for cryptocurrency.

If cryptocurrencies were not burdened by regulations, there wouldn't be the same informal market for person to person, cash to cryptocurrency transactions.

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by zeofig on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:22AM (#28047903)
Another fantastically ignorant pontification on crypto, right here on Hacker News. Whether you like crypto or not (or whether you know anything about it or not), little of what you said is relevant to the point of the article in question.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by eingaeKaiy8ujie on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:54AM (#28047012)
You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by dang on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @01:04PM (#28051564)
Please don't break the site guidelines like this, no matter how ignorant someone is or you feel they are.

If you know more than someone else, that's great—please share some of what you know, so the rest of us can learn. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but then please don't post.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by herendin2 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:55AM (#28047723)
IMO, you're probably right, but what you've written is even worse than the comment you're replying to. At least the OP tries to argue a point and offer some vague evidence. So please don't do this type of lazy driveby sniping here. Flagged.
Re:Infrastructure bill cryptocurrency surveillance provision... by trophycase on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:07AM (#28047080)
This won't age well