News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by duxup on Monday August 02, 2021 @11:58AM (#28038371)
I'm all for having the right to repair.

I'm not convinced any of the folks involved ability to root would prevent the situation described.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by js8 on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:30PM (#28038854)
If you could safely (on the hardware level) replace image of the phone with another, it would be easy to guarantee that you can get a rootkit-free phone - all you need is a trusted image.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by pvarangot on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:05PM (#28040373)
The Pegasus thing didn't even survive a reboot, it was reinstalled by using the 0-day again on a fresh boot. Replacing the image would have done nothing if they were flashing a version that still had the iMessage vulnerability.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by fartcannon on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:19PM (#28042076)
But if that imessage vulnerability was FOSS and you could flash your own image, you could fix it and move on with your life.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by gruez on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:36PM (#28043006)
>But if that imessage vulnerability was FOSS and you could flash your own image

1. the vulnerability wasn't FOSS. It was kept under wraps because otherwise it would get discovered and apple would patch it

2. what makes you think that amateurs working in their free time can patch 0days faster than the vendors themselves?

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by raxxorrax on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @02:42AM (#28046313)
Because these "amateurs" build all the essential tools we rely on today. That wasn't Apple. I cannot really believe what crap I have to read here. Vendor lock in is a huge factor for insecurity in software.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by pvarangot on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @01:02PM (#28051535)
Amateurs behind what essential tools? Tell me a tool and a name. I've been thinking hard for 10 minutes and every FOSS tool I used the past week has highly regarded and well payed professionals behind it.

Maybe in 1995 it was like that, it's not now.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by fartcannon on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:12PM (#28043870)
It's not yet even possibly to reliably detect the infection because of the closed nature of the device.

I think I'd like to check my iPhone, but I can't reliably do that.

So that, for a start, would help.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by gruez on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:17PM (#28043912)
>I think I'd like to check my iPhone, but I can't reliably do that.

but you can, via itunes backup.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by raxxorrax on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @02:48AM (#28046332)
Reading the dump? That isn't nearly as effective as giving users the ability to administer their system. That is in no way an alternative.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by ekianjo on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:58PM (#28043233)
its not like there are no security vulnerabilities in FOSS apps either
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by fartcannon on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:08PM (#28043836)
No, but when they appear, _you can fix them_.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by zzt123 on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:29PM (#28044017)
Are there actual hard numbers on whether open-to-all-eyes is beneficial at all scales?

For example, do public eyes actually catch and did more Linux bugs than three letter agencies? And would this situation be worse if Linux were a very well funded, closed source Windows?

I’m ignorant on whether the open source security mantra is founded upon religion or evidence.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by drran on Monday August 02, 2021 @09:52PM (#28044900)
Classical FUD.

> For example, do public eyes actually catch and did more Linux bugs than three letter agencies?

Is it so important, who found a bug? TLA can find a bug, and then it has a choice: TLA can use it to spy on other countries, or TLA can fix it to protect their own country.

Your TLA may choose to leave your country unprotected, but it is the problem of your country.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by zzt123 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:40PM (#28051253)
Sorry, not an attempt at FUD. As I wrote, I’m entirely ignorant on whether there is hard evidence one way or another on the topic.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by raxxorrax on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @08:03AM (#28048196)
Although they do contribute, believing three letter agencies wouldn't try to leave backdoors is certainly the former.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by dewey on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:36PM (#28038958)
> it would be easy to guarantee that you can get a rootkit-free phone

The problem in this case is that you get the malware installed through a no-click required iMessage and not a "supply chain" attack on the image your phone is running on. How would that help?

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by pdkl95 on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:57PM (#28039284)
It could help by simply being sufficiently different. The only reason this type of malware is such a widespread problem is the large monoculture of potential targets. Just like in agriculture (e.g. potatoes, bananas), a monoculture allows a single pathogen to affect an entire crop. In security this is a class break[1].

Utilizing different software implementations limits the scope of this type of attack. The current trend to increasing centralization and forced-update monoculture is a huge gift to malware authors: they only have to write one version of their malware to affect everyone.

[1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/01/class_breaks....

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by maldeh on Monday August 02, 2021 @01:49PM (#28040101)
This is a good principle in terms of reducing the overall blast radius of exploits. But to do this the implementations should genuinely be independent.

In practice we may find a monoculture within a hidden layer of the stack than we're optimizing for, such as an OS kernel method, TLS library or chipset which coincidentally has captured the entire market. When a clever enough exploit on a common resource is found, then the problem transforms to one of coordinating patching for the same, wherein a broad ecosystem of higher level components (like Android or PCs) becomes nearly impossible to thoroughly cover. As such malware authors may potentially still get away with writing a single version of their software so long as they target low-level enough. With sufficient fragmentation they don't even need to invent their own exploits, just use publicly known CVEs that they can brute-force against older devices.

(Not saying you're wrong, your recommendation may still be better in the long-run. We're after all weighing the risk level of black swan events, such as a zero-day on a low level of the stack, or a high level of the stack on a high-volume vendor)

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by gruez on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:39PM (#28043039)
On the flip side, having a monoculture is good because you made more eyes looking at the same piece of code.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by pdkl95 on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:08PM (#28043832)
How many people have seen the iMessage source code? A handful of devs at Apple? Closed, proprietary software by definition prevents "more eyes" from looking. Even if we consider an open source product where having "many eyes" review the code is at least hypothetically possible, a large number of people using the software doesn't imply there is also a large amount of people reviewing it.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by gruez on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:26PM (#28044000)
>Closed, proprietary software by definition prevents "more eyes" from looking

But we were talking about the general case of monoculture, not closed source monoculture. Even for closed source software, where more eyes are prevented from looking "by definition", having a monoculture can in theory allow more code audits to be done, because of economy of scale.

> large number of people using the software doesn't imply there is also a large amount of people reviewing it.

Right, but roughly speaking, the number of reviewers should monotonically increase given an increase in users. Whether that produces better security overall is anyone's guess. My point was just that there was a counteracting force to consider.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by eptcyka on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:58PM (#28039292)
The argument isn't that granting more freedoms to the owner of the device will magically make it more secure in all cases, for most it won't.

The argument is that removing freedoms from owners in the name of security is a false dichotomy because bad actors will still gain the ability to execute arbitrary code whilst owners of devices won't be able to do so.

Also, if I could provide the software I want to run, I'd probably not have iMessage.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by turminal on Monday August 02, 2021 @01:28PM (#28039762)
It would help because knowledgeable people would get to pick what software they run on their phones and iMessage probably wouldn't be on the list.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by derefr on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:37PM (#28040837)
Journalists (as here) don't usually get to choose the communication software their sources are comfortable communicating over. They install whatever's required to get the story. And they likely wouldn't install an OS that doesn't let them install such apps.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by cronix on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:02PM (#28043267)
That's a niche use case. You might not be able to choose what app they require to communicate over, but you can choose what device to install it onto, like a burner, couldn't you? Some apps you might not mind on your personal phone, others you probably do.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by derefr on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:53PM (#28043705)
Well, yes, but if you think about it, the whole point of a journalist's work phone is just to aggregate a bunch of "burner" accounts. And that's exactly what an attacker would want to steal from a journalist: conversations between them and (or contact details of) another source.

Which is all to say, ideally a journalist would have N phones, one per source. But that's impractical.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by godelski on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:57PM (#28041117)
Would it? Wouldn't you still need privilege escalation? Having root access is different from being logged in as the root user. Of course being logged in as root comes with all the same security risks as it does if you do this on Linux. But no one uses root as their main account.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by tremon on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:54PM (#28039234)
You could replace the image with software that doesn't support iMessage, for example.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by mrtksn on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:54PM (#28041073)
> all you need is a trusted image

I bet you, that image will be provided by the trustworthy people from NSO, free of charge or at a price! Whatever makes you trust their image.

IMHO devices should be root-able but with high barriers of entry, something like soldering should be involved. If you are after doing something that you don't understand but a stranger on the internet told you to do it you shouldn't be able to do it.

I just want to remind you that quite recently a few police agencies come together, built a "secure messaging app", fed it to the criminals and tracked all their communication until gather enough information to take down their entire operation.[0]

Or the time when CIA run a Swiss encryption company[1]

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27429311

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22297963

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by mustafa_pasi on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:58PM (#28041143)
So according to you Linux is compromised?
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by mrtksn on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:04PM (#28041205)
The point is, you wouldn't know unless you have complete understanding on every aspect of your device and every bit of the software.

Nobody would be installing a Linux kernel and use the phone like that, they would be installing a distro. There are so many vectors of attack, the person who puts the distro together doesn't need to have malicious intent, the supply chain could be compromised.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by failuser on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:45PM (#28041682)
Probably not intentionally, but there are likely a bunch of 0-day exploits we don’t know about.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by theyellowkid on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:27PM (#28041470)
You know, it's getting so big and warty that I'd be surprised if it wasn't.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by 923u8ghf on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:46PM (#28043105)
I think it would have, because the primary attack vector is your messaging app. Some Android phones, such as mine, are locked in such a way that this cannot be uninstalled. I can use another messaging app but this one will still run on my phone which means that it can still be exploited.

Unfortunately, the only way to secure my phone because it no longer receives updates is through rooting, but this phone is not a model that can be rooted so my plan is to buy a new phone and root that, and probably remove all text messaging apps or find a way to sandbox them in a secure environment.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by raxxorrax on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @02:40AM (#28046303)
It would give you the ability to check at least. Not having root doesn't protect you evidently.

Smartphone landscape of software is a huge failure aside from monetization of apps and user data.

Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by rodgerd on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:08PM (#28043833)
If anything, it would likely make it worse, since you'd now have "convincing the user to install your payload", recreating the phishing problems of desktop platforms.
Re:Pegasus spyware found on journalists’ phones, French inte... by mcguire on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:05PM (#28040369)
The device would have to be treated as inherently untrustworthy, like your laptop or a PC in a cafe or library. That is unlike the (Edit: false) current expectation that the hardware and OS of the device are a trusted platform.