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Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by BugsJustFindMe on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:13PM (#28031143)
Every time I see one of these announcements, the valuations go up and up and up and up. I remember not long ago being wowed by a 1B acquisition. That was called a unicorn because of how incredible it was. And now we're at 29B. Is this just because money is all a joke?
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by TheAlchemist on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:20AM (#28034170)
Notice that it’s all stock - no real money is changing hands here.

All assets are at all time highs - bubble levels for most. Hence those « valuations » - but if history repeats itself, things can change quickly.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by muzani on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:10PM (#28032504)
Yeah, I think the "unicorn" bar needs to be pushed up to $10B at least, because of inflation. It's very rare though, but fintech seems to hit it frequently.

Perhaps finance people have less money raising money. Or perhaps people are more willing to pay for things that save/make money.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by papito on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:33AM (#28035309)
Dogecoin is literally a joke, and is promoted by some billionaires, who are allegedly smart.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by tigerBL00D on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:56AM (#28035884)
Lack of regulation means that there is no penalty for trading on non-public (insider) information or for stock manipulation. Lack of regulation is what everyone wants, right? Except regulation is there to prevent all sorts of fraud that ultimately leaves someone's granny holding the bag. The said billionaires are not so dumb. They know what they can get away with and their close friends may know what they're going to tweet before they do it.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by JohnJamesRambo on Monday August 02, 2021 @01:57AM (#28033333)
Yes money is all a joke right now.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by fungizid on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:07AM (#28033719)
The steep increase at the end mostly does not reflect a change in economic fundamentals but rather banks relabeling savings accounts as transaction accounts in response to regulatory changes. If you look at M2 instead of M1, the increase disappears.

More info: https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/05/savings-are-now-more...

(Edit: Updated link to a more recent blog post)

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by andruby on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:23AM (#28034543)
Still a huge jump in M2 in Feb 2020: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2NS
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by fauigerzigerk on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:34AM (#28034938)
Yes, but this 32% increase was not initially new money in anyone's pocket. The Fed simply replaced some treasuries and other debt on banks' balance sheets with reserves, which don't have to be backed by equity.

This gave banks more wiggle room to sit out the pandemic without reducing lending at the exact wrong time.

So the Fed has done its job on the way down. Now they just have to do their job on the way up as well, or this money will eventually end up as new money in someone's pocket (via new loans) and potentially create inflation.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by RobertoG on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:41AM (#28035349)
>>"or this money will eventually end up as new money in someone's pocket (via new loans) and potentially create inflation. "

For that to happen you need enough credit demand in the economy.

It could happen, and, as you say, the Fed would increase the interest rate making reserves less available (credit more expensive), but the number of reserves in the system doesn't cause directly more money in the economy. It depends of the type of recovery.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by fauigerzigerk on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:41AM (#28035770)
Agreed, but the difficulty is that the Fed cannot easily distinguish between different kinds of credit demand.

They may justifiably want to keep interest rates low and loans easily available to help businesses and governments roll their pandemic induced debt until they can grow out of it.

But then some other credit worthy borrower comes along and snaps up those cheap loans to buy into some asset market that doesn't need any support.

And where they do have the tools to make that distinction they don't appear to be using them. I don't understand why they keep buying mortgage debt while house prices are already looking dangerously inflated.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by annamargot on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:35AM (#28035323)
Potentially? Seems to me that potential is already being realized.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by fauigerzigerk on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:53AM (#28035858)
I don't know how we can possibly know that. There are just too many confounding factors right now.

We had this unprecedented crash that clogged up global supply chains and caused a huge shift in what people are buying. We have massive government spending increases. I don't think it's possible to work out what impact QE is having on inflation right now or whether it will indeed be transitory as the Fed believes.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @02:34PM (#28052503)
I still see a curve blasting off at an unprecedented accelerated rate after the jump. And after 2009 doesn't look great either.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by jl6 on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:02AM (#28033694)
Can someone explain why x4’ing the money supply hasn’t ÷4’d the value of the dollar? Yet?
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by gizmo on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:46AM (#28034662)
What matters is the amount of money in active circulation. If salaries all went up 4x then you’d see significant inflation across the board. The fed provides extra liquidity to banks which trickles down to the financial system, which makes stocks go up, and real estate to some extent, but it doesn’t boost the entire economy. Doing 1tn of QE and borrowing 1tn for shovel ready infrastructure spending are not equivalent.

Inflation always lags behind, though, and it’s pretty likely at this point that rising inflation indicators in the coming quarters force the fed to tighten. Opinions are very much divided on this, where many are convinced the fed needs to take drastic action to keep inflation from getting out of control with another financial crisis as a result. The other mainstream view is that we’re only seeing transitory inflation right now and as long as the real economy is healthy we shouldn’t expect inflation to persist and cause carnage.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by blueblisters on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:52AM (#28034714)
I believe that's partially because that money is a liability on someone's balance sheet - the fed, the banks, the treasury, companies, consumers etc. As long as the Fed can use its levers to mop up excess liquidity sometime in the future, the excess money supply is not too much of a concern.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by bluecalm on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:37AM (#28034955)
Imagine everyone gets 1000 USD loan, freshly printed USD from the government. Money supply just increased by 300billion (assuming it's for US citizens). Does it mean inflation follows? Probably not because people know they have to pay the money back. The price of assets people really need/want or those that are undervalued is going to go up though.

I believe the situation is the same with stocks. They were criminally undervalued for decades (imo still are somewhat undervalued) so additional money supply causes the prices to increase (it's profitable to buy into great opportunity and pay back cheap loan later) but it's only because the assets were very cheap. If they weren't it wouldn't make sense to buy them no matter how much money is around (as you need to pay it back).

What may cause inflation though are programs when you just hand money to people (not as loans but as handouts) as then you just diluted everyone's else money.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by skohan on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:37AM (#28035327)
What's your reasoning for concluding that stocks were substantially undervalued?

Because another way to read the situation is that stocks are simply the asset of last resort. In a world with no interest, you can't park money in bonds (or CD's etc.) so you've basically got stocks, real-estate and commodities left as options.

Large-scale asset managers are not going to park billions of dollars under the mattress, so basically it has to go to stocks.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by bluecalm on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:58AM (#28050789)
No deep analysis on this one. I just think it's a crazy good deal to be able to buy stock of the biggest corporations which lead humanity technological progress, have huge political influence and even at today profit levels return 3-4% per year (in reality much more as a lot of money is invested in research/new projects which are going to be profitable in the future). I think Apple/Amazon/Alphabet/MSFT etc are going make even more in the future and current price is a steal, especially considering those are highly liquid assets with 0 cost of maintenance.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by xiphias2 on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:15AM (#28033766)
The banking cartel controls where the newly printed money (debt) goes first by controlling interest rates (governments, big banks, stocks, bonds and houses get the best rates near 0%, and Aftermarket and credit card customers get 30%
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by adventured on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:09AM (#28034101)
Because the money supply didn't increase 4x. They changed the definition of M1 to include savings.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by irjustin on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:08AM (#28033723)
The new thinking is money supply/debt vs GDP doesn't necessarily equate to inflation.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by Toine on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:39AM (#28033539)
Is that the amount of cash circulating right now ? That is terrifying...
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by osrec on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:50AM (#28033625)
Is that massive jump covid related?
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by comodore_ on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:03AM (#28033695)
I watch this every 6 months or so https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by buster on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:07AM (#28033721)
I don't understand the difference but the text below particularly points out a change in measurement in May, 2020. I suppose that's the reason.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by dna_polymerase on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:29AM (#28035679)
No, it's a change in methodology. The "money printer goes brr"-crowd is just unable to digest information.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by leppr on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:12PM (#28043351)
No, that "crowd" is talking about the 30% increase in a year of M2 money supply, which is unprecedented in US history. The gymnastics going on with the M1 curve don't change that underlying fact, although it does provide a convenient strawman deflection in arguments so less informed people stop at this rebuttal and believe the whole "huge money supply increase" narrative is a hoax.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by dna_polymerase on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:18AM (#28048773)
Yawn, any reason you did not link to the M2 graph at FRED? Maybe, because the bump is also a change in methodology? The money printer has been running for decades, but all of a sudden there is a problem? All that money is stuffed into equities and has no impact on inflation. But who gives a shit if one can talk about Bitcoin instead.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by leppr on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:43PM (#28055635)
1. It has been linked many times in this thread.

2. No.

3. Not at a comparable rate as is evident from the graph.

4. Are equities and other assets completely disconnected from the consumer economy? Many of the new rich and retirees will cash out or take loans against their assets.

5. Economically speaking Bitcoin is inconsequential in this story. Careful using its proponents as another strawman.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by arthurcolle on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:10AM (#28034103)
money printer goes brrr
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by shoto_io on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:13AM (#28034125)
Facebook acquired Instagram for 1bn. Ridiculous by today's standards.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by mrtksn on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:19AM (#28034163)
I remember the jokes about how FB purchased a photo filter app and how easy it was to make photo effects. Sometimes it feels like techies not always get what is valuable and what is not as much.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by danwills on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:17AM (#28034850)
I want to share my recent fractal renderings, that I think are valuable, here's a fun example:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AT9bcRZygdcCiMs5TvRXK50iik5...

Despite it being where-everyone presumably-is I do not want to use Instagram, so I am not sure what's best to do.. is there a good-enough 'open'/decentralised alternative now?

Maybe a simple rss feed would do it?

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by shoto_io on Monday August 02, 2021 @07:01AM (#28035109)
What's the reason you don't want to use Instagram?
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by danwills on Monday August 02, 2021 @09:00AM (#28035919)
It's not part of the public internet, that's probably the main problem, but I also have quite a strong aversion to things run by large corporations. At the moment I let google in, but that's it. (and they completely ruined my previous picasa-album sharing of my galleries of fractals, so I'm not hugely happy here either!)

I am more interested to find a passionate niche of ppl that really love the journey than getting general exposure, I guess that's another side of things: 2d fractals don't really have much mass-market appeal, but if you know what's going on there, it's a lot more interesting to follow!

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by vmception on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:44PM (#28039082)
you can search for things on instagram on google and they appear in the results. you can browse instagram without an account, some of it.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by andrewinardeer on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:34AM (#28035717)
Pixelfed
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by danwills on Monday August 02, 2021 @09:23AM (#28036186)
Sure, I've heard the name around HN a fair bit and had a brief look into it in the past, loved the idea but didn't get very far yet. (Gentoo linux user here, not helpless) Do you have any recommendations for docs about getting started with sharing images on pixelFed?

I made an account on shared.graphics:

https://shared.graphics/danwills

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by bufferoverflow on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:45AM (#28035010)
Imgur.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by conradfr on Monday August 02, 2021 @09:12AM (#28036060)
When Microsoft bought LinkedIn for $26B, my tech lead said to me "why did they buy it for so much? It's just a website, I can code a website".
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by shoto_io on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:03AM (#28047400)
This is so ridiculous, I don't know what to say...
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by pcurve on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:34PM (#28032314)
That's part of it, but it's concentrated around certain sectors (technology and startups) There is x5 ~ x10 premium being put on these companies compared to others.

Valuations in other sectors are still somewhat reasonable.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by vmception on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:45PM (#28031363)
Kind of? If you follow monetary policy circles, you would know that we are only close to the predicted level of fantastic market distortions that should be expected.

It is fantastic to see it play out, such as valuations much larger than before, as well as the unexpected areas of speculation and shifts in market tolerances for worse deals.

But we aren't even done yet! And this comes with a pretty clear agreement on the limitations of monetary policy, like we know massive central bank balance sheet increases don't accomplish their [stated] goals well. But we also expect central bank balance sheets to increase by further distorting the market. When central banks purchase things, whoever they bought it from now has money that didn't exist before the transaction. This money doesn't "trickle down" into the economy, instead it more so pools with these people that are active in the capital markets, and they are trying to figure out how to make more of that money faster than the central bank buys and creates more. So the only way to do that is to attempt greater and greater deals. Because there is nothing else to buy - the central bank already bought the "good investments" (bundles of mortgages, treasuries, investment grade corporate bonds, even some junk bonds) and is also looking for more just like you are! So now you have to take greater risks, maybe this $29 Billion deal that the central bank won't try to get in on!

The conundrum is that now the capital markets are expecting the central bank to buy everything, especially the dips. (most central banks don't buy stocks, but when they buy fairly illiquid bonds from people those people often buy stocks. in US a lot of the stimulus money came directly from the central bank after Congress modified its charter to give currency directly to people in exchange for nothing, and the recipients also bought stocks. the same sentiment is distributed in all socioeconomic classes even the top 0.01%.). So if the central bank gives a hint at reducing purchases (called "tapering"), the markets crash, and the central bank is strongly advised to continue!

The stated purpose is to get people to invest in "main street", instead of just the same small collection of assets. Turns out, it doesn't matter and nobody wants to invest in random entrepreneurs. The market is signaling that it would rather pay to not invest in randoms (in many parts of the world, government bonds have a negative yield, which means people are paying to own a bond while also further losing on inflation). So if you do have access to the capital markets due to your pedigree or network or net worth, the stuff you sell - your company's shares that you typed up on a sheet of paper, or whatever - will have a much higher valuation because other people have nothing else [eligible] to buy and need to put their money somewhere!

The US is the strongest hold out on negative interest rates, and is the largest market too, so the anticipation of the "season finale" is that the US gets to that territory as well, and then we really get to see some fireworks in the market as it is a major psychology barrier as well. Watch the 2 year and the 10 year treasury rates, as they are seen as having the most liquidity and trading activity.

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/i...

As you can see they are really close to 0% right now, for a prolongued period of time. Getting to this negative stage requires SOOOOooooo much infathomable amounts of money, hoarding government bonds. But the central bank is the main purchaser of these bonds, from both the treasury and private owners on the secondary market, as they buy they push the yields closer to zero. (bond price increase = lowers yield)

fun times ahead! expect greater valuations and quick!

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by jollybean on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:25PM (#28032267)
+1. This is the real comment about the situation, because the valuation is so 'ridiculous', it almost makes the nature of the business activity secondary.

For non-financial folks, dust off the little equation you may have learned in high school, where you value something that goes out forever, but where the rate of growth is higher than that of inflation and the risk-free cost of capital. It goes to infinity. So as interest rates go down, valuations grow. But as interest rates really get low ... the valuations vault into the stratosphere.

Only in a weird universe can we really expect these companies to grow at those rates for very long periods of time ahead of absolutely everything else without much risk.

So the discussion is really about markets, less so local types of consumer payments.

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by rossmohax on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:49AM (#28035826)
What would you recommend to read/watch to understand better this kind of things?
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by vmception on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:44PM (#28041671)
hmmm, not sure, at this point I think you would be better off using what I wrote as a summary and hopping in to current events

Matt Levine’s writings on Bloomberg occasionally go into macroeconomic territory, he has a facetious and satirical approach to current events in capital markets

There are a few other sensational editorial publications about macroeconomics and credit markets, but I wouldn't recommend them for actually learning

Sadly, I think this leaves a void between dry material, and sensational disinformation sites

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by paxys on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:42AM (#28032963)
Back when 1B acquisitions were considered incredible most of the world did not know what the internet was. If the size of the pie grows 30X the amount of money in it will as well.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by throwawayzRUU6f on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:05AM (#28033367)
Just several years ago, Facebook IPO-ed at ~$90B valuation, before sliding all the way down to ~$45B. Facebook was already a giant global corporation with close to a billion active users, nearly all of them from western countries.

AfterPay's valuation puts it at two thirds of mid-2012 Facebook. Up until now, I've never heard of them

Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by AQuantized on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:09AM (#28033729)
'several years' in this case being almost a decade
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by skeeter2020 on Monday August 02, 2021 @09:23AM (#28036182)
if you've got one of these frothy valuations and can find another company that will take an all-stock deal you're basically buying a company that hopefully has some real assets underneath all the foam, but if not you're paying with waht is essentially self-minted fiat currency. In the meantime you better believe the insiders are quietly converting to something more concrete.
Re:Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B by m12k on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:33AM (#28033871)
The market value of a company or person is determined by the market value of whatever they're shoveling around every day. Shoveling around software is valuable, but shoveling around money even more so. It just doesn't get more pure than that - it's literally the thing we use to measure the value of everything else.