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Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by dukeofdoom on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:17AM (#28024228)
If printers can do this, then why wasn't it done with ballots? It would make auditing possible to have each paper ballot a unique id.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by sircastor on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:25AM (#28024256)
Ballots are tricky. In the US, You want to ensure anonymity while also ensuring the voters franchise is not threatened.

If we want them to be uniquely identifiable, then we don’t need to hide the identifier. If we don’t want them to be uniquely identifiable, then hiding the identifiable ID becomes a violation of the voters privacy.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by willis936 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:40PM (#28027611)
This begs the question of how the secret dots aren't a blanket violation of the 4th amendment.

Also IANAL but I feel like there must be some law about deception of this kind. Selling a product that does something you don't expect it to, were never told about, and would not reasonably even observe feels somehow like fraud.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by beebeepka on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:28AM (#28024490)
I thought the US has something called voting registration and it's public. How does that ensure anonymity?
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by hoppyhoppy2 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:08AM (#28024658)
You can register as a Democrat and participate in the primaries for the Democratic candidate but (thanks to the secret ballot) vote for Republicans in the final election. Or vice-versa. And nobody other than you will ever know how you (as an individual) actually voted.

Or you can register as an independent if you prefer. The rules vary by state, but the worst that happens is you can't participate in the primaries (but can absolutely vote in the final election). Who you, as an individual, voted for is still not traceable back to you.

In other words, it's your right, thanks to the secret ballot, to vote completely differently from the party you registered under or even differently from how everyone in your life perceives you, and nobody will ever know.

There are people who changed their mind years ago about what party they support and have been voting that way ever since, but just haven't gotten around to (or don't care enough to) update the party they listed on their voter registration.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by ThinkingGuy on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:13PM (#28027967)
Some states, such as Georgia, don't have party registration at all. You're not a "registered Republican/Democract," just "registered." Any registered voter can choose to vote in either the Republican or Democratic primary (unsurprisingly, this "open primary" system was originally implemented in order to supress the Black vote).
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by barsonme on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:13AM (#28024680)
That doesn’t mean your physical ballot can be traced back to you, however. Your vote is secret, the fact that you’ve registered isn’t.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by nebula8804 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:10AM (#28024668)
It does not reveal who you vote for. A traceable ballot that has been cast can reveal this info.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by cr1895 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:07AM (#28024652)
Voter registration is not linked to how one votes.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by jahmed on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:33AM (#28024285)
What exactly does "audit" mean to you?

Ballots typically do have unique IDs usually on some part that is removed by the voter. The problem is that isn't linked to anything because we don't want it linked to anything. This form of auditing isn't compatible with ballot secrecy. US elections do undergo rigorous process audits but the electorial process presents challenges to results audits.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by dukeofdoom on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:40AM (#28024311)
With mailed out ballots, if each paper ballot had a unique id. You could audit:

1. That each paper ballot was only counted once by the tabulating machine.

2. No extra ballots were returned with an id that was not generated.

3. Easily spot copied ballots.

You could probably audit more things. If for example the id corresponded to a county, and so on.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by hoppyhoppy2 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:03AM (#28024381)
Yes, it would be very convenient and maybe make it easier to catch voter fraud. But the voters couldn't have any trust that their vote was being counted separately from their actual identity.

If the government mails me a ballot with ID #1234 on it at my home address, then they have a way of knowing that Ballot #1234 belongs to me in particular when they're tabulating the votes, which means they can find out exactly how I voted. Now we don't have a secret ballot anymore, and the secret ballot is a fundamental part of our democratic voting system; a secret ballot prevents the government from rewarding people or doling out punishment based on how they voted. It's a safeguard against authoritarianism.

(I think some US states put identifying info on the outer envelope or sleeve that the ballot is returned in, but there's a strict system to keep the envelope-opening step separate from the ballot-tabulation step, so people's votes cannot be personally linked to them as long as the system is followed. And these days there are usually cameras watching to make sure it is followed, and the footage is public.)

If you do get rid of the secret ballot then there's not much of a reason to hide the ballot ID via yellow dots. Just put "Ballot #1234" all over it and/or print a unique barcode. But regardless of whether the ballot ID is displayed or hidden, if you happen to get a dictatorial maniac into power (whatever you personally envision that person to look like) then you would be one step closer to letting that leader use personally-identifiable voting records to punish the people who voted the way he (probably a he) didn't like and/or give the people who voted the way he did like rewards or unfair advantages.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by inglor_cz on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:48AM (#28024578)
You could also determine that person X voted for an unpopular politician and ruin their life online. The reason why voting is anonymous is the realization that an election should not degenerate entirely into a popularity contest driven by peer pressure.

If you want to audit mailed out ballots, use two envelopes instead. The outer one will carry a unique id, the inner one will be completely anonymous and contain the actual ballot. All the auditing can be done on the outer, unopened envelopes. Then they are stripped off, all the inner envelopes are thrown on a heap and only then opened and counted.

Of course, even then, the paper ballots contain traces of the voter's DNA, so the truly paranoid will not be happy either.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by pessimizer on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:18AM (#28026873)
> ruin their life online

> popularity contest driven by peer pressure

No, it's so people can't sell their votes, or be told by their parents/employer/local gangs that if they don't verify they voted correctly, they will be hurt. It's not cancel culture or popularity contests or whatever. Voting is definitely supposed to be a popularity contest based on peer pressure.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by jffry on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:04AM (#28025993)
At least for where I am in the US, that's basically how my mail-in ballot worked for last fall's election.

The completed ballot goes into an opaque sleeve devoid of identifying information, which then goes inside of an envelope. The envelope has an extra "flap" where you put your information and signature, and then it seals onto the envelope.

When processed, the flaps have perforations that can be physically separated from the rest of the envelope and validated and retained for audit purposes, and later on the collection of sealed envelopes can be opened and the ballots counted without having any attached personal information.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by sethammons on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:10AM (#28025708)
Couldn't you give a unique prime number to each person each election (untracked) and use that to calculate a final product of a particular election, and then people could independently validate their vote went where it should?
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by pessimizer on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:14AM (#28026841)
There are complicated schemes that can work, but if voters are able to prove the content of their vote to another person, they will be able to sell their vote or be extorted for it.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by api on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:13AM (#28025722)
“E Pluribus Unum” meets the fundamental theorem of arithmetic. I like it.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by IanCal on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:31AM (#28024279)
Most countries have a secret ballot. In the UK all ballots are linked to the voter with an intermediate table effectively, which is then destroyed after a certain time.

More generally, for ballots you don't need to hide this, you could just have a number on them.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by suction on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:09AM (#28024409)
There are very persistent rumours that exactly this is done in Japan at every election. I can't find a Non-Japanese source right now.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by yreg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:10AM (#28024672)
How would they do it? Have a unique id for each envelope and enter citizen ID and ballot ID in a database as they hand you the envelope?

The process should be well known since all it takes to find out is go sit in an election committee.

Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by suction on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:55PM (#28028853)
That assumes that the Japanese version of democracy works similar to the ones we live in. Which it doesn't, at all. It's more of an authoritarian system with a friendly, democratic facade put in front when the US pressured Japan to modernize after WW2. A very interesting topic, I've recommended this book on HN before: Karel Van Wolferen - "The Enigma of Japanese power". Basically what we think of the system of modern Japan in the West are carefully doctored fairy-tales and mythology.
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by yreg on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:25AM (#28034197)
Can you be more specific what exactly my question assumes which is not true?
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by suction on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:35AM (#28047247)
That 1. they have similar election committees and 2. anyone can go take part in them
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by yreg on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:01AM (#28058471)
How are they dissimilar to the western ones? Who participates in them? Can't the parties candidating in the election nominate their representatives into the committees?
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by anthony_romeo on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:48AM (#28026610)
Would that open up conspiracies about the end of the 'secret ballot'?
Re:Why printers add secret tracking dots (2020) by danghacker on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:14AM (#28025448)
A third world country whose offshoring programmers are regularly mocked by the ivory tower SV elites can do voter id but not the world's richest country