Because if they don't, it's the end? You can't seriously expect corporations to welcome unions?

Unions are not “the end” for corporations, that’s a false dichotomy.

And I’m not at all expecting corporations to welcome unions, I’m saying unions need to fight for it. But that requires people believing in unions again.

Why not?

Because unions offer literally no upside for companies. They are meant precisely to organize the collective power of the employees to pressure the company into deals with its employees it wouldn’t have otherwise.

One upside for companies is that the unions are better able to represent the interests of the employees than, for example, the HR department would be able to, simply because of the incentives at play. This could attract more talent to the company, improve retention, and give the company more insight into the employees' needs.

only in theory. in practice unions become just like other orgs where leaders concentrate power for themselves and fail to represent anyone at all. making the situation worse for the employee and the employees.

If that's the inevitable fate of all orgs then why bother creating any kind of society at all?

I can agree that unions concentrate power in imperfect ways, but personally I still think they are an overall improvement on the non-union status quo.

> unions are better able to represent the interests of the employees than, for example, the HR department would be able to

Employees are really good at complaining (at least in the US). Management that is interested in knowing what bothers employees definitely knows without a union.

> This could attract more talent to the company, improve retention

Paying more money works even better. People choose better paying jobs pretty consistently even if it means dropping the union.

> Management that is interested in knowing what bothers employees definitely knows without a union.

Sure, but unions are good at motivating management to care.

Long ago, there were 2 companies - one welcomed unions and the other stopped unions. The one which welcomed unions lost it's profit margin and the other "predatory" company kept it's profit margins and grew more aggressively and put the "good" company out of business.

After that entrepreneurs learned that you need to be ruthless to win in capitalism. Don't get me wrong, I support fair wages for all employees, no matter what they do. But in real life capitalism, only the most ruthless companies win (FB, AMZN), unless they have an amazing product (e.g. GOOGL)

If you truly supported fair wages then you’d support collective bargaining.

I'm not sure GOOGL is any less ruthless, they where certainly not above illegal wage fixing.

I'm not happy about that, but what bigcorp doesn't try to bust unions? Certainly Walmart does it too, so that really seems to just be an instance of Amazon merely matching their competitors' abuses.

> but what bigcorp doesn't try to bust unions?

I know it's slightly off topic, but in some areas of Europe it is considered essential for any big employer to have a healthy union. The employer encourages unionization, and there are certain benefits for them too.

Remember when there was a unionization vote at a Volkswagon plant in Tennessee, and VW was like, "please vote yes, we like working with unions and believe it'll make everybody's lives easier". But state and national politicians, not to mention outside lobbyists, created a huge campaign to oppose the vote? And then the "no" campaign succeeded.

You can't make this stuff up. But it drives home the reality that anti-union sentiment is strong in the U.S.; and deep. Most non-skilled workers in this country are very skeptical of unions, if not outright cynical. And it's always been this way, going back to the 19th century.

IIRC, there was a second vote at that same plant a little later. That time VW HQ just kept their mouth shut. And they loosened the leash on their American managers, who mostly opposed unionization. Obviously it failed again.

I absolutely agree with you, they all do it, because all major corporations suppress wages, because there’s no real consequences for it anymore.

“If the only punishment is a fine then it’s legal for the rich” or however the saying goes.

I think almost all large corporations are abusive and will bust unions to maintain their dominance, it’s still unacceptable though

That just means everyone is suppressing wages to some degree. The whole class thing, you know.