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Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by Trias11 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:32PM (#27898908)
That's why the move to decentralized everything.

This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by voldacar on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:34AM (#27902375)
I really, really want to believe this but I don't think I can. Over the past several years there has been an unquantifiable but subjectively enormous shift in the atmosphere of the cryptocurrency world. At one point it shifted from being about paranoid hackers and techies trying to create a way of doing transactions that was free from trusted third parties to being essentially a space for grifters to shill shitcoins and idiots to buy them. Bitcoin went from being a thing with a radical, revolutionary purpose in the world to being "look, price graph goes up," and this fills me with a deep sense of foreboding.

It increasingly feels like we are in a time when anything with any potential to harm the Regime (such as web, bitcoin, etc) just gets defanged and absorbed into the system. In a few years, your web browser will probably transmit the details of your mandatory TPM chip to facebook, netflix, etc so they can uniquely identify all devices with complete precision and deny access to unapproved (user-controlled) computers. Microsoft already only allows users to install other OSes/bootloaders on new computers by their good grace. The keys are theirs, not yours.

With bitcoin we already have KYC/AML ruthlessly enforced at every onramp/offramp. It is already very hard to transact between fiat and crypto without presenting some form of government-issued identification, and it will only get harder as time goes on, I don't see how you could reverse this process. And that culture shift is important because the people whose voices are most dominant within the "crypto sphere" today don't seem to give a shit, really. The crypto people we have now seem to lack the deep, fundamental commitment to human freedom, privacy, and security that was the animating force behind the creation of bitcoin. I desperately want to believe that it still survives and I'm just not seeing it somehow. But I simply can't.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:17AM (#27903287)
> The crypto people we have now seem to lack the deep, fundamental commitment to human freedom, privacy, and security that was the animating force behind the creation of bitcoin.

It's probably because the few remaining crypto people, in the space dominated mostly by scammers, realized that crypto anarchy is something that's fun to read about in a sci-fi novel, not something you actually want to live in.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by selfhoster11 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:28AM (#27904098)
> realized that crypto anarchy is something that's fun to read about in a sci-fi novel, not something you actually want to live in.

I'm a crypto OG, and I also mourn what this space has become. You are entirely incorrect in the last part of your sentence.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by 3np on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:17AM (#27903709)
What do you base this on? I know a fair number of crypto OGs and I don't think anyone would agree with that. Sure, we're all tired of the scams and greedy schemes but this too shall pass.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by sharperguy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @09:54AM (#27906288)
Although this appears the be the case with the broader community, in the development space of bitcoin itself the community there appears very serious about tackling privacy, scalability and censorship resistance of bitcoin.

Over time, most of the people shilling "coin go up" memes have lost interest in bitcoin and have moved to other coins, leaving space for this kind of thing to develop in bitcoin.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by csomar on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:56PM (#27911285)
One: Decentralized exchanges (aka no KYC, limits or restrictions of any kind).

Two: Crpyto-backed smart-contract stable coins (similar to DAI). (aka USD tokens without the need for the US financial on-off ramps).

Then watch this space skyrocket into the stratosphere.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by voldacar on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:49PM (#27912645)
I think decentralized exchanges are cool but they are only useful for people who already have significant crypto holdings. ~nobody gets paid in bitcoin. The initial transfer of fiat for crypto is the most difficult part since that's where the kyc, regulation, etc comes into effect.

I'm not sure what stablecoins have to do with anything i said.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:46PM (#27899098)
I do not really want to discourage this line of thinking, but please note the old fashioned golden rule ( he with the gold makes the rules ).

Apart from that, check crypto trends and quickly you will notice that they are very few projects that care about it in any real way. Every major crypto now effectively all about centralization, not the opposite. For different reasons than the central banks, naturally. Still, the trends are hard to ignore.

Otherwise, we would already have crypto outright banned or fully decentralized by now.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by Trias11 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:20PM (#27899521)
Lots of crypto projects are commercial businesses and this certainly creates conflict of interest toward monetizing and centralization.

However there are more and more truly decentralization projects. Anything that doesn't do KYC when related to crypto trading/exchanging - have to be

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by csomar on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:58PM (#27911306)
99% of crypto ventures are pump-and-dump schemes. Centralized crap pays better in the short term and that's what these projects are after: a quick pump.

Don't focus on the short-term if you want to make serious money or learn a technology that will stick around.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by delaaxe on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:05PM (#27899323)
Decentralize everything = make all your transactions visible by anyone
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by stavros on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:16PM (#27899470)
Except this is completely untrue, since there are private cryptocurrencies you can use.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by cmckn on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:26AM (#27902635)
You're not wrong, but this is really only relevant if a significant number of users actually treated these systems as currencies. Monero and others are not very popular, because the public transaction metadata of BTC and ETH doesn't matter if it's just a casino.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by stavros on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:53AM (#27903097)
Certainly, but the GP talked about whether privacy exists, not whether it matters.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by elmo2you on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:19PM (#27899508)
How private are those then? Isn't it true that at least everything is visible to at least all participants?

EDIT: in other words, my question is actually whether your claim has relevance, considering how most crypto currencies aim to be public (or that's at least my impression).

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by stavros on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:21PM (#27899531)
No, you can't see anything, basically. You can only see your own wallet and transactions, and (AFAIK) you can't even see who sent you funds.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by elmo2you on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:49PM (#27899835)
So, then how does that technically work? How will integrity be verified/guaranteed?

If it's just an application level shielding, as in a separation between user software that can't access the information but a layer/cluster of infrastructure software that can, then I'm not so sure if its nothing more than rather meaningless cosmetics.

Do you by any change have some references as to how this would work? because I sincerely believe that this statement of "decentralization means access to all" actually fundamentally holds.

EDIT: I'm also doubting the classification of decentralized, if a piece of the user software relies on something else that has more capabilities (essentially a typical trait of centralization).

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by AgentME on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:55AM (#27904233)
You're assuming that anonymous payments could only be accomplished if there's some private server that knows the plaintext of everyone's balances and just keeps it secret, but that's not the case. There are ways using zero-knowledge proofs or other cryptographic techniques to accomplish anonymous payments in a decentralized way.

In Zcash or Monero, everyone knows the public blockchain and their own private keys. If you make a transaction, it's broadcast to all nodes. There's no special privileged nodes that people give their keys or transaction plaintexts to. Transaction data doesn't contain the sender, receiver, or amount in a way that's clear to the public. The transaction is made so the receiver can decrypt enough to see that they're the receiver and see the amount. The transaction also contains exactly enough information so that the public can verify that the transaction didn't invent any money out of thin air and instead only sent as much as the sender could, whoever they were. (Zero-knowledge proofs can be made to prove pretty arbitrary results over data even to people missing certain inputs!)

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by knuthsat on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:10AM (#27902541)
Monero is completely private.

Confidential transactions combined with bulletproofs [0] are an efficient way to deal with the added privacy.

You cannot see who sent you the amount. Blockchain is fully encrypted and you cannot see any amounts or transaction sender/receiver.

0: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8418611/

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by stavros on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:50PM (#27899845)
Sure, there are a ton of resources here: https://www.monero.how/how-does-monero-privacy-work
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by hanniabu on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:01AM (#27902187)
Zk-proofs
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by delaaxe on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:18AM (#27903291)
“Completely untrue”, this is a mathematician’s answer.

Any real person using DeFi or NFTs is not using a privacy coins

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by eingaeKaiy8ujie on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:52AM (#27903540)
There are also things like Tornado.cash.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by elmo2you on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:18PM (#27899484)
That is actually a surprisingly simple yet fundamentally true summation. Thank you.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:32AM (#27902361)
> This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

I agree with most of crypto’s philosophy. But this obnoxious naivety makes me root for and materially support the other side.

Is there a word for this?

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by programmarchy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:45AM (#27902425)
Contempt? Schadenfreude? Sadism, perhaps?
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by the-dude on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:09PM (#27899390)
> This total control nonsense

Also known as taxes.

> these dinosaur idiots

Taxman.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by sabjut on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:47PM (#27902129)
I think it's really funny to see all these people think that they can with crypto game the millennia old system of taxation. Of course any sovereign nation is eventually going to break down any kinds of tax fraud.

A state unable to collect taxes ceases to be a sovereign state.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by int_19h on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:51AM (#27903522)
You don't need to track all cash flow in society to collect taxes. You do need it specifically for personal income tax. If we, say, taxed property and other monopoly rights more extensively instead (in the vein of georgism), such an arrangement wouldn't be so privacy-invasive. It would also mean that those at the top would have to pay more, though - so...
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by csomar on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:00PM (#27911337)
The UAE and Qatar will disagree. Direct taxation is a thing, and is unavoidable (whether you are using crypto or quantum currencies).

Complex taxation that hides where you paid taxes (ie: VAT) or where your taxes went (ie: infrastructure or old persons pension) is what's at risk here.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by cinquemb on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:06AM (#27903206)
Arguments over taxation have always led to war, if history is any example… right now people bullish the decentralization narrative are willing to pay taxes to miners/validators/protocols and less so governments.

Eventually this will lead to decentralized warfare with dao's fighting asymmetrically and not playing by the old rules.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by seanalexander on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:46PM (#27902124)
If it's a decentralized database then how does it enhance privacy?
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by jacoblambda on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:10AM (#27902874)
Something like Monero or ZCash is decentralised by the same (or similar) means that Bitcoin and Ethereum are however they use various mechanisms to maintain privacy.

Monero uses ring signatures and several other mechanisms to separate a transaction from the sender, recipient, and contents so that you can't reconstruct chains of transactions but you can still verify consistency across the blocks. Monero is reasonably private but it's still technically possible to rebuild some fragments of transaction chains even if it's extremely unlikely.

ZCash on the other hand uses Zero Knowledge Proofs to verify correctness of the blocks and the transactions without leaking information about the system (such as the sender, recipient, or amounts). ZCash is much more computationally expensive, needs to be carefully callibrated, and needs the founding keys to be safely destroyed following the bootstrap of the system to remain secure however it does provide stronger and more easily mathematically verifiable assurances of privacy. "The Ceremony" is a really good one-off podcast about the story.

But in general it is possible to have privacy preserving functionality in decentralised services, it just requires far more complicated maths and lots of statistics to make work correctly.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by seanalexander on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:21AM (#27902928)
Cool, thanks for the resources!
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by nly on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:20PM (#27899511)
Is uniswap really decentralised? I mean it has a domain you can take down
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by martinko on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:02AM (#27902195)
You can interact with the contract directly on the eth chain. Likewise you can create a new gui/domain to interface with the contract.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by ushakov on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:32PM (#27899652)
it's hosted on IPFS and the source code is on GitHub

https://github.com/Uniswap

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by ac29 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:46PM (#27901019)
So what happens if a US government entity issues Protocol Labs a cease and desist order (they are the YC-funded, Palo Alto California based creator of IPFS)? Do they just roll over and go out of business? The network might be decentralized, but the company and people behind it are not.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by Sargos on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:20PM (#27901996)
What do you expect them to do? Hardcode their clients to ignore that certain CID? That obviously won't work for a whole host of reasons.

That Uniswap UI is out there and literally nothing can stop it.

Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by nly on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:45PM (#27899786)
My understanding was the licensing on the web interface was not liberal
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by ushakov on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:54PM (#27899886)
sure, but the smart contract (backend) is deployed on public ethereum blockchain, nothings can stop you from building your own client
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by Trias11 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:23PM (#27899551)
No KYC. It's good enough for now.
Re:EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable by sizzle on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:12AM (#27904022)
You can see you used uniswap for your wallet activity so you are screwed if your wallet address is every audited in the not so distant future?