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Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by _RPL5_ on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @09:56PM (#27828677)
The entire thread is pure gold. If you scroll down, he writes:

> The Chair [of the Columbia Film program] reached out and said he was confident that we could work out an arrangement to get my degree. But he insisted that I fly out to NYC immediately for an in-person meeting. So I spent a fortune on a last-minute flight in order to hear his proposal.

> But instead of telling me what I need to do to satisfy the requirements to get my degree, the Chair began pitching me his idea for a TV pilot. In excruciating scene-by-scene detail. I nodded along, waiting to get back to the terms of me getting my degree.

> But to my horror... I slowly begin to realize this IS the deal. He made it pretty clear if I wanted my degree, I needed to help him sell his tv pilot. Yep, the Chair of Columbia’s prestigious graduate film program tried to shake me down in order to jump-start his own stalled out career.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by mannerheim on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @10:45PM (#27829028)
This should be a red flag to anyone studying film at Columbia. How much can your degree possibly be worth if your department chair can't sell a TV pilot without shaking down a former student to jump-start his own career?
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by rurban on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @03:31AM (#27830591)
Film critic here, who knows a lot of ex-Columbia filmmakers. The situation is the same everywhere. Columbia is still the very best film school in the US. But it's not comparable to other countries with proper film university programs. There the burn rate is probably below 10%.

US film schools are more like the shady private film schools in Europe, which focus more on practical tasks and where you have to pay everything by yourself or by external sponsors. Teachers are horrible. A bit like in art schools or theatre, bit more extreme on the financial side. Less harassment though.

I mean, in Vienna (Haneke) they only take about 8 a year, sometimes only 2. They take only the best, where they see they will make it.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by silexia on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @10:39AM (#27833536)
Maybe we should not tell kids to follow their dreams for work, but work for money so they can follow their dreams?

Majoring in film making, writing, and most non-stem degrees is a quick way to be deep in debt working minimum wage jobs. Even business (my degree) is a waste of money for most kids.

I am telling my kids to major in computer science or architecture, then they can mess around with fun stuff in their free time.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by mr-wendel on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:04AM (#27833846)
This is advice I wish I heard a long time ago. What makes it extra hard is when your dreams do line up with your work.

It then becomes nearly impossible (for me, anyway) to disassociate what you do with who you are. When times are rough, it's personal. When mistakes happen, it's personal. And when you score a big win or are sitting atop an awesome opportunity... the dial just gets turned up another notch.

Taking up gardening (in truth, being taken up by gardening) has been a huge sanity saver, but it's still hard to not look back and feel like I lost my way over time: what was an insatiable curiosity gave way to the expediency of being a paid performer. I still love it, but just not like before, especially after the shift ends.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by mmcgaha on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:39AM (#27834332)
I would love to send my kids to school to get a philosophy/english lit/history degree and then let them get a masters in something job relevant, but this is not how kids from the working class get to spend their early/mid 20s. Our kids feel the pressure to make money early and so it is crucial that kids from this economic class get a degree that has job and earning potential. If we were able to support our kids to 30, you bet I would encourage them to start with a liberal arts degree.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by joe_the_user on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @11:39PM (#27829431)
I'm pretty the situation is not confined to Columbia. This is how crazy the film/movie world is.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by lenova on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @01:17AM (#27829950)
> I'm pretty the situation is not confined to Columbia. This is how crazy the film/movie world is.

It's not limited to the film/movie world either... this is the unfortunate truth of most MFA programs: they don't launch careers, unless you're looking to become a MFA teacher yourself.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by HPsquared on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @03:56AM (#27830719)
In other words, Multi-Level Marketing
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by mannerheim on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @11:45PM (#27829478)
Indeed this is certainly more broadly applicable. But if this is the case for a school as prestigious as Columbia in New York City (i.e., a city with a thriving television industry), things must be even more dire at no-name liberal arts colleges in flyover states.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by duped on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:56AM (#27829852)
"Those who can't do, teach" is fitting for many fields of study
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by tpoacher on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @03:48AM (#27830678)
Actually, those who "can't do", generally "can't teach" either. One surefire way to get better at doing something is trying to teach it, in fact.

I get what the quote is trying to imply, (and why) but it's totally backwards.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by julian_t on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @06:34AM (#27831548)
It always annoys me when I see that quoted. The original idea applied to people like athletes - you do it when you can, but when you're too old to compete, you can still teach. Nothing to do with ability, and in fact, it assumes more ability on the part of the teacher.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by cfjgvjh on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @07:47AM (#27832024)
From my experience, athletes who were really good at the sport wasn't the greatest teacher; since they kind of intuitively understood how they should conduct their body to do something, they had a real tough time trying to transfer that knowledge to me who has no idea how I should move my body. They often tried to use imaginary that didn't really connect with me. It was far better to be taught by someone who was good but wasn't a natural as a beginner since they seemed to have a better grasp on what kind of struggles normal people had.

Obviously this is just anecdotal and probably changes at the Olympics levels and other places where the learner competency and affinity is already high.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by HWR_14 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:17PM (#27834775)
I've tried tutoring people in academic subjects I know really well. I find myself unable to explain what they're doing wrong because I cannot put myself in their shoes. Try teaching algebra or calculus to someone who doesn't get it, and let me know if your skills really help with that.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by bitwize on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @10:52AM (#27833703)
Depends on what you're teaching. In engineering circles it's been said that those who can, do; those who can't, become Six Sigma consultants.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by sjg007 on Thursday July 15, 2021 @09:22AM (#27844330)
Or agile instructors / scrum masters.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by bitwize on Thursday July 15, 2021 @11:18AM (#27845753)
That'd be the SW equivalent, yes.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by slightwinder on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:35PM (#27835001)
Not really. One can have the knowledge and understand the mechanics of a trait, and is still unable to succedd in this trait. Especially creative fields are guilty of this. Similar is sports. A great coach can still be lousy player. Because at the end for success you need far more than just knowledge.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by hogFeast on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @10:28PM (#27828893)
I studied a social science (economic history) with the suspicion (I am can't recall why) that a lot of people in universities who do more vocational subjects are there because they can't actually make money using those skills (so I would only do a course that was totally useless).

When I got to university that was confirmed in spades (and I was glad to actually get something for my money, because the subject was "useless", I got great teaching, great feedback on my work, etc.). Obviously, business was the absolute worst (one professor taught a course on investing, he literally wrote a book on investing, he left at the same time I graduated to run a fund...just before the pandemic, he got fired because his fund was down 10-20%/year, he was one of the worst-performing fund managers in the UK at the time), stuff like law was pretty decent (although most people who studied law never became lawyers either, I don't understand how because the school was number #1 ranked for law...after I left, I saw quite a few lawyers who got a job due to family...so it might be that), and even CS had a great reputation in teaching but the actual linkages with industry were non-existent, so the teachers taught the theory and things they thought were fun to teach (lots of students struggled, I spoke to startups who said they had trouble recruiting, even though this school turned out hundreds of grads every year, because they all just went to larger companies that didn't require actual development skills).

It isn't the case everywhere but I think the idea that university is required for success outside university is misleading, particularly for high school students. A lot of the knowledge is definitely very useful but life outside university tends to be about things that aren't in any books. University is orthogonal to life.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by MeinBlutIstBlau on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @11:59PM (#27829572)
I had a writing professor who encouraged us to write more and do workshops with him often. Go figure he had his linkedin publicly available so I snooped around. Not only had he not made much mainstream success as a writer in hollywood, but he doubled down for a PhD to get out of it and has been a professor ever since. Although, probably a lot less cooler than Hank Moody from Californication.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by lordnacho on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @03:06AM (#27830481)
> It isn't the case everywhere but I think the idea that university is required for success outside university is misleading, particularly for high school students. A lot of the knowledge is definitely very useful but life outside university tends to be about things that aren't in any books. University is orthogonal to life.

Outside of certain subjects where the ability to work is tied to the education, university is mostly about signalling that you're able to learn stuff. Note I didn't say that you learn stuff.

To the extent that I "learned" stuff at uni, it was quite superficial and due to the sheer quantity it ended up getting very exam focused. So people would learn how to numerically solve PDEs, but only enough to pass the exams, which of course could not test this knowledge in a sensible way. The format of answering five questions in three hours by hand while wearing formal academic clothes just isn't suited to how a lot of these things work.

There were a load of subjects like this, where the content itself was interesting, but you just had to do a load of context switching because of the nature of the degree. One exam is PDEs, another is hydro, thermo, electronics, and so on.

Nobody would be unable to learn any one of them, but many people found it soul crushing to do all of them. And that's a shame, because in the world of work I've never needed to dive deep on 6 or 8 subjects at once. At most it's one or two broad topics, done with sane tools, judged in a sane way.

So at the end of university I'd indexed a bunch of knowledge in engineering and business. Useful, but still only scratching the surface of what is in those fields. It also gives you a beginner level bullshit filter, which is maybe even more useful than the survey of knowledge. You won't give time to the crackpot who claims to have a perpetual motion machine, because although you might not have all of thermo down, you'll have a very good intuition that such machines aren't possible, and you will know which arguments sound right in the field. You might give the emdrive a bit of an investigation though.

The BS filter is especially useful in the social sciences. I did Economics and Management as part of my degree, and while I don't have a cohesive theory of how everything works, I can spot an overconfident crackpot from a mile away. People who oversimplify how the economy works, people who think they can explain it all, people who say they know what will happen. You will know where the weaknesses are in arguments simply by having read the back-and-forth.

As for the real value of university, I think it's hard to spot. I have a suspicion that if we forced a reduction in places, we'd be just as well off. All the knowledge that you're taught is free for everyone to read, and in the modern world you can fund the best explanation of anything on the internet. All those intuitions I mention above can be learned by anyone who bothers to do so. My working theory is that it's a form of intellectual hazing. Prove that you want to be part of this group (intellectuals).

Where previously someone reasonably smart and eloquent could be found at the end of high school, that person now needs to complete university to get a chance to do a whole swath of roles. So the person who could have taken a professional job at 18 now has to be 22 to get the same job. We can tell because there's firms like PWC who have a program to hire exactly such people. Or for instance I had a private banker in Switzerland who started as an apprentice doing work/study, that seemed to work perfectly fine and seems economically sensible. I once worked with a talented guy who didn't have a degree, and he had self-confidence issues because he didn't have a fancy Oxford degree. Others I've met have felt compelled to go back to uni after years of doing a job.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by okareaman on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @10:36PM (#27828967)
Those who can, do; those who can't, teach

George Bernard Shaw

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by addison-lee on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:26PM (#27834893)
What an abysmal quote. It is completely false, and does nothing to encourage intelligent people to go into teaching which we desperately need.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by okareaman on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @05:24PM (#27838629)
I hate it too and wish I hadn't shared it. I thought it was basically what the parent was saying, but more succinct.
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @11:27PM (#27829346)
Makes you wonder about those sex-ed teachers, eh?
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by bwship on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @09:54AM (#27833007)
"And those that can't teach, teach gym" - Jack Black, School of Rock
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by FranzFerdiNaN on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @01:37AM (#27830026)
If you can’t do it you can’t teach it. This quote, while being dumb as shit, does show the incredible low value we place on teaching. Teaching is for losers, and yet as a society we’re incredibly confused why we aren’t being taught well in schools and universities????
Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by hogFeast on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @10:54PM (#27829089)
I wasn't convinced they could teach either. It is like being taught cycling by someone who not only hasn't cycled, they haven't even seen a bike.

Being able to do, and being able to teach aren't separate. I got value because my professors could teach and do, they were experts. If you can't do, don't teach either...just do...something else.

Teaching seems to attract all the dregs from society.

Re:Of 55 students in my class at Columbia’s Film program, 4 ... by steveBK123 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @10:05PM (#27828743)
this was probably my favorite part its grift all the way down!