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Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by alexose on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:22AM (#27811184)
Dying forests, megafires, failing crops. For all the talk of a looming crisis, it seems apparent that we're already in one.

It's time to consider solar geoengineering or other more extreme mitigation strategies.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by ssully on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:31AM (#27811288)
I was reading this article [1] last night and this paragraph in particular has been bouncing around my head all morning:

The crisis, said Eric Kuhn, former general manager of the Colorado River Conservation District, can no longer be ignored. “According to Merriam-Webster, a drought is a temporary condition,” he said. What is happening, he suggested, is something more permanent and troubling. “This is aridification.”

I think it's just because the framing for so long has been "drought", when it clear that what is going on is probably more severe.

[1]: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-07-11/lake-m...

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by treis on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:58PM (#27812396)
As much as people like to ridicule the CC deniers for pointing to unusually cold conditions the same side loves to do it when it supports them. For the Colorado River specifically, we established "normal" during an atypically wet time and now that we've gone through actual normal to a dry cycle it's a crisis. It's the normal cyclical behavior of nature and not really Climate Change that's the issue.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by gilbetron on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:31PM (#27812800)
What are you talking about? Do you have some sources explaining this? This just seems like the oft-used, "previously it was an anomaly, we are returning to normal" pseudo-science that gets dragged out about everything concerning climate change. "It's not getting hotter, we were just in a cold period".
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by jeffbee on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:43PM (#27812961)
Yeah, but it's true. The period during which white settlers arrived in the American west was ridiculously wet. This presentation is a little irritating, but if you scroll about 80% of the way down you'll see the chart of tree ring data that shows tree growth was at a 1000-year exceptional peak during the 20th century.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2021/jun/...

Edit: Here's a more accessible version of the graph: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6488/314/tab-figu...

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by gilbetron on Monday July 12, 2021 @02:16PM (#27813318)
"The only reason this drought is lagging behind that 1500s drought is because it's so young," Williams said.

Both of your links show how bad the current drought is. If the current drought miraculously reverses itself in the next several years, than what you're arguing could be true. However, it doesn't look like that will be happening - time will tell.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by jeffbee on Monday July 12, 2021 @03:06PM (#27813799)
Current drought is ridiculously bad, but is exacerbated by the ridiculously wet period that preceded it.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by arrosenberg on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:40PM (#27812911)
The book Cadillac Desert makes that claim. When the water rights for the Colorado River were divided up, it was based on a quantity of water measured during a wetter year.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by treis on Monday July 12, 2021 @02:16PM (#27813319)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River#/media/File:Col...

It's not exactly accurate because it doesn't account for water taken out for irrigation above this particular point, but it clearly shows the natural ebb and flow of the Colorado's volume.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by arbitrary_name on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:52PM (#27812305)
I was recently prompted to read 'Cadillac desert' which provides a very interesting summary of the development of water in the west, and the looming challenges. TLDR: it's gonna keep getting worse. Anyway, highly recommend.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by neom on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:29AM (#27811268)
Not to take away from what you're saying, I agree. I presume I'm in the minority of Canadians, but when the current government announced that new combustion vehicles would be banned in 2035, the only thing I could think is I need to vote for the green party. New sale combustion vehicles should be banned by ~2025, even if that means setting up crown corporations with tax dollars to deal with the infrastructure requirements. By 2035, it should be illegal drive one on public roads, period. At this point, I will only vote for people with a fully environment first platform, even at the expense of "bad" fiscal/economic policy for the country.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by zamalek on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:14PM (#27811795)
That's fantastic, and there needs to be more people like you. The problem I'm seeing is:

> China isn't doing anything, so why should we?

If the entire human race comes to an end, the last two gravestones will read: "the guy in the other grave is to blame."

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by neom on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:30PM (#27812006)
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by zamalek on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:02PM (#27812448)
> World’s largest solar plant goes online in China

And the irony is that such a power plant is an extreme strategic and economic resource. During wartime you no longer have to worry about how to import ever dwindling fossil fuels. During peace time, you have limitless negotiation power.

Majority renewable energy would likely push a country into a realm that is far beyond a superpower. And China seems to have caught on to this - they have probably realized how much money they are burning while securing coal reserves around the world (e.g. Zimbabwe).

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by alexose on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:05PM (#27811679)
I'm with you. Climate is the only issue I care about anymore. My home is Southwest Oregon, so it's just a strategic choice.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by imtringued on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:06PM (#27811698)
>I will only vote for people with a fully environment first platform, even at the expense of "bad" fiscal/economic policy for the country.

For developed countries that have high productivity growth, falling demand as the population ages and low inflation you actually have to come up with random ideas to keep the population employed. It doesn't even matter what you do. You could let them dig holes and fill them. What's important is that the money goes to people who spend it.

You know. Instead of letting the government be the investor of last resort, why not just introduce a carbon tax and carbon tariff and just let the private sector do all the investments? It would revitalize the economy far more than a bunch of trump style tax cuts.

Green investments for climate change? Fuck that, let's save capitalism with green investments!

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by TheBill on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:29PM (#27811984)
Have fun pitching your fellow Canadians on a massive regression in standard of living that hits your poor & first nations communities hardest while becoming a economic vassal state to the CCP, who literally does not give a fuck.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by arbitrary_name on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:01PM (#27812434)
That is not the option in front of us as voters, or as a nation.

The poor and first nations communities have not been well served by the current paradigm, and in fact the best outcome for them is generally left leaning policy that actually honors seniority of water rights, enforcement of environmental laws, and policies that support critical first nations fisheries and other resources (stop damming salmon runs, displacing the tribes and selling the water and power to large corporate farmers would be a great start).

It is the political right that has largely trampled the poor and first nations into the dust over the past decades, on both sides of that border.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by Cycl0ps on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:02PM (#27812447)
No one's saying it will be fun. They're saying it needs to be done
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by Pokepokalypse on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:46PM (#27812992)
wait until climate-induced mass famine hits them. Literally no one is going to give a shit about languages, cultures, or nations when hundreds of millions are dying of starvation.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by UnpossibleJim on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:38AM (#27811366)
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/01/970670565/run-the-oil-industr...

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45435593

I don't disagree with where you are going, but I think there might be easier ways to geoengineer than mirroring sun directly back out into space (unless I miss my mark at what solar geoengineering is - if so, I'm sorry). I cound't find it, there's also the "plan" to release megafauna into the midwest and pay to have them "sheparded" so they become a commodity instead of a liability, creating grasslands again.

EDIT: typo

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by alexose on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:55AM (#27811565)
The approach really should be to do _everything_. I love the idea of reforestation, sustainable agriculture, etc., but there's a ramp-up time inherent in all of these. The advantage of solar geoenegineering is that the effects would be relatively instantaneous.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by toomuchtodo on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:27AM (#27811244)
If we implement a bandaid with geoengineering, do you think we'll still try to fix the root cause (burning fossil fuels)? Or will we kick the can even further?
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by alexose on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:44AM (#27811432)
That's an important question. My thought is that it doesn't really matter in the short term. Our ecosystems out here in the west won't withstand another couple of decades of this. Any attempts to fix the root cause haven't worked fast enough, so it's time to try something else.

In the long term, I hope that the economic forces of cheap renewables and energy storage might be enough to get us down to a reasonable PPM. And maybe, just maybe, we'll see advances in sequestration that get us down to where we were before.

I'm not an expert, so please don't take any of my views as fact. I'm just a layman trying to find some hope in what looks like a pretty hopeless situation.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by not_jd_salinger on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:00PM (#27812429)
> Our ecosystems out here in the west won't withstand another couple of decades of this.

Which is unfortunate because even if we dropped emissions to zero tomorrow, we would still be in for a few more decades of escalating climate crisis.

In the grand spectrum of what's already be chosen as far as climate change goes, this is just the very, very beginning. Our chance to act to prevent what we're seeing now was 30-40 years ago.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by Pokepokalypse on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:48PM (#27813014)
I would expect fossil fuel companies to be first on the geoengineering bandwagon. Probably the only thing that could possibly save their industry.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by munificent on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:57PM (#27813130)
I live in the Pacific Northwest. It took only two years to go from:

"Breaking news: Record-setting forest fires in California will send smoke up to Washington."

to:

"It's wildfire season again, here's our favorite air filters for 2021."

Humanity's ability to go from "oh, shit" to "this is fine" and just not realize how much worse things have gotten is incredible.

I assume in 2025 we'll all just scroll past the boring article about which ten metropolitan cities in Florida washed into the Gulf today so that we can get to some funny comics.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by blamestross on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:28AM (#27811257)
Welcome to reality. While the media and governments are talking about finally preventing global warming, it is already too late. The question is, if we mobilize the entire world economy to mitigate it, it might last only a few hundred years instead of a few thousand. Ironically, I think lying to the public and claiming to be trying to "prevent" global warming is better, people would just give up if they knew what the actual impact of our actions would be.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by alexose on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:58AM (#27811597)
Kind of reminds me of software engineering-- You usually only get credit for 'rescuing' a bad situation, but never for preventing that situation in the first place :)
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by not_jd_salinger on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:06PM (#27812500)
Why is this being downvoted? I've notice a disturbing trend on HN where bad news is downvoted.

It's unquestionably too late to prevent global warming, and mitigation is only possible if we seriously consider organized economic down scaling. This is stuff people have known about for decades and strangely enough took more seriously in the 70s than they do now.

Carbon emissions grow every year and the rate they are growing at continues to rise as well. Fossil fuel usage continues to rise (globally, local changes are meaningless). The only time we see any serious reduction in emissions is during massive economic down turns.

Many argue that people won't accept a change of lifestyle, but that change is coming either way. Since virtually no one I've chatted with will even take economic reduction seriously I'm pretty certain it is "too late" in every sense.

Downvoting comments like this because you wish it wasn't true is really unfitting of a community that prides itself on being 'hackers' and understanding how the world works.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by blamestross on Monday July 12, 2021 @10:21PM (#27817096)
There has been an observable conservative and libertarian culture shift in hacker news while I have been a member. This community is about startups and extraction of money. The "hacker" part has been dying by simply being outnumbered for a while now.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by TheBill on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:41PM (#27812139)
IMO we need to burn more out west. We're digging out of ~200+ years of mismanaging the forests:

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-...

"Before 1800, several million acres burned every year in California due to both Indigenous burning and lightning-caused fires, far more than even the worst wildfire years today. Tribes used low-grade fires to shape the landscape, encouraging certain plants to grow both for tribal use and to attract game."

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by danans on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:56PM (#27812357)
> IMO we need to burn more out west.

This addresses only a symptom (more extreme wildfires) and not the root issue: persistent drought / aridification amplified by climate change. To be resilient to the latter, we need to become dramatically more efficient in how we use water resources, especially in the food production pipeline.

[dead]
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by danans on Monday July 12, 2021 @07:16PM (#27816210)
The scales of water management that Native CA tribes were doing with their burns is not going to fix our water issues, since we use orders of magnitude more water than they ever did, both per capita and as a civilization.

At this point, prescribed burns are only a fuel management technique to minimize massive wildfires. They are not a realistic way to mitigate climate change driven aridification. It's not really clear that we can mitigate it - we just need to adapt to use water more efficiently.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by _huayra_ on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:13PM (#27812581)
The thing I think that would differ is the vegetation that would normally survive the fires would be able to flourish again after, e.g. some pine trees in California have pine cones that only disperse seeds during a fire (high temps).

After spending a lot of time in the Sierra Nevadas growing up, I really can see how a lot more trees are dying. A lot of it is that pine beetle wreaking havoc, but the number of standing dead trees is astounding. Old bike paths I used to fly down I now have to be careful on in case I round a corner and have a tree down; 20 years ago I just never had that cross my mind!

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by Pokepokalypse on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:51PM (#27813053)
I do a lot of backpacking in the Sierras, and last year I went to Colorado for the first time. The number of trees there that are standing-dead from pine borer beetles is staggering. It looked to be about 1/3.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by TheBill on Monday July 12, 2021 @05:37PM (#27815430)
Yep, we'd manage to kill off a lot of the invasive species like eucalyptus, take a load off the water table for a few years. A chance to get ahead of things like the beetle blight that are dependent on early spring drought to kill native pine trees would be good.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by genericone on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:57PM (#27812372)
I agree as well, we're creating a literal powder keg of a situation with the amount of dry brush that is left lying in unmanaged areas. I get that we have to protect the towns and cities, but we can't just keep pushing this situation out into the future. But I can also see that the larger and more mismanaged the eventual fire is, the more changes you can dictate to combat climate change, so I'm not sure if the wildfire problem is politically tenable.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by omegaworks on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:43PM (#27812950)
We need infill housing as well. Controlled burns and housing forced into the wildland-urban interface won't mix.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by hknapp on Monday July 12, 2021 @03:24PM (#27813963)
What are "low-grade fires"?
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by cannabis_sam on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:10PM (#27812554)
The saddest part is that we could still limit the damage to the future of our civilization by actually doing something, instead of like , perfomatively banning plastic, while leaving cars and oil/gas power plants alone.

I mean, how many thousands of years of plastic utensil avoidence equals an oil well operation over a year?

It’s not really fun to conclude that it would be more humane to not have them, than to bring children into a world completely consumed by its egotistical inhabitant’s desperate desire to please Moloch at absolutely any cost.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by qqqwerty on Monday July 12, 2021 @02:10PM (#27813261)
Do you really think that local municipalities focus on single use plastic is the reason we haven't solved climate change yet?

Climate change and plastic pollution are two separate issues, but I would be willing to bet that the folks who support plastic pollution legislation are also some of the more fervent supporters of climate change legislation. And at the municipal level, for every plastic ordinance there are probably dozens of ordinances focused on climate change. But solving climate change will likely require global cooperation on a level that the world has never seen before. So you are essentially cherry picking a topic to accuse their supporters of being "performative" just because they haven't yet solved one of the biggest challenges the world has ever faced.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by cannabis_sam on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:06AM (#27833884)
>Do you really think that local municipalities focus on single use plastic is the reason we haven't solved climate change yet?

No, and I wasn’t trying to say that.

> Climate change and plastic pollution are two separate issues, but I would be willing to bet that the folks who support plastic pollution legislation are also some of the more fervent supporters of climate change legislation.

I agree, but in democratic societies (at least in western europe where I have experience), policy tends to be decided by compromise between different interests, and plastic bans and more impactful climate change occupy the same lane of general support for environmentalism.

So we get into a situation where green parties want to reduce plastics and want to reduce petrol/gas use, and our (Western European) compromise becomes a ban on plastic and little done to reduce petrol/gas usage.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by yongjik on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:44PM (#27812965)
All this talk of geoengineering solutions seem to miss one crucial detail: who's paying for it? We can't even make people agree on carbon tax.

With any money available, we can build solar/wind farm, which is a proven method of fighting AGW (and it even pays for itself these days!) and we can't even do that fast enough.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by ep103 on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:57PM (#27813122)
Historically, when a democratic government meets an existential problem that it can't convince or use its richest members to pay for, then that democratic government is, either slowly or quickly, replaced by a more authoritarian government that will then do one of two things:

1 - Forcibly use the wealth of the country to solve the problem, over the objection of those prevented that use of wealth previously.

or

2 - Forcibly silence the people who are experiencing hardship as a result of the problem, so the society can go back to believing (realistically or not) that there is no such problem worth solving.

This happens by degrees, as a very rough response to the degree of hardship presented by the problem, at first, but is the expected result if the society can't democratically answer the "who will pay for it, not I" question.

Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by swader999 on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:48PM (#27813021)
Earth is getting greener every decade with more C02. Can't let weather events push extreme solutions to this.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by alexose on Monday July 12, 2021 @03:51PM (#27814277)
Overall green-ness doesn't coincide with the needs of civilization, unfortunately.
Re:U.S. Pacific Northwest heat wave bakes wheat, fruit crops by swader999 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @01:02PM (#27823366)
Is sea level rising at 1-3mm a year really a problem?