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Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:16PM (#27785278)
> "...they seem like a better idea than air conditioning whole rooms."

in the same vein, most people's behavior around heating/cooling is comically misguided and inefficient. most people believe temperature is what we're trying to control, and that's driven by how weather reports, climate controls, and even our language ("it's hot!") emphasize temperature (which isn't nefarious, and makes sense in their separate, respective domains) rather than heat transfer, which is what we're really after.

this is most evident in cars, where folks point air vents away from themselves while running the a/c (or heat) full blast, rather than pointing the vents at themselves and running at a lower speed. the former is based on the idea that the whole car's interior temperature needs to be lowered (or raised) for effective heat transfer away from (or to) the body, which is incorrect and inefficient. pointing the vents at you (on bare skin ideally) promotes heat transfer immediately instead of waiting to create a big enough temperature differential to do the same work.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by klysm on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:13PM (#27786694)
I think people absolutely understand that pointing the vent at their face will cool them faster. The problem is it’s not uniform and uncomfortable to have your left mid arm freezing while the rest of you is hot.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:32PM (#27786885)
sure, but that's why there are multiple vents? and you can run the a/c at a lower speed to boot.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by usefulcat on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:50PM (#27787115)
Two cold spots are not better than one. If you're claiming that the approach you describe is more efficient, then I agree with you. But for me the 'vents pointed away' approach is still subjectively more comfortable, though it does take longer.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:55PM (#27787190)
there are controls for both speed and temperature, as well as vent direction. it's not difficult to find a comfortable combination.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by MetaWhirledPeas on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:19PM (#27787470)
I understand what you're getting at, but having 1-4 vents pointed at the front of your body is not the same as having the cabin air at a particular temperature. Neither is having air blowing on your front side the same as having air swirling about your entire body.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by sedatk on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:52PM (#27787820)
Basically, any fan/temp setting with vents directed at you either feels too uncomfortable or not cooling enough due to the direct impact. It's easier to fine tune ambient cooling with vents directed away from you. I wonder how these jackets work in that regard.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by wolverine876 on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:39PM (#27788240)
That is a problem that people can solve if they want to. But if you insist that you need help: I find that aiming fans across extremities, arms/hands and legs, is very pleasant and effective (a higher surface area : volume ratio?).
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by IgorPartola on Friday July 09, 2021 @05:24PM (#27788704)
God this is such an engineer response. Yes every body is the same and everyone should always do the most optimal thing regardless of the actual outcome or goal.

Some people have poor blood circulation. Pointing a small fast fan at their arms will not cool their core.

Some people get dry eyes easily. Pointing a fan at their face will make them extremely uncomfortable.

Some people are extremely sensitive to temperature changes. They don’t want to be hot but pointing a 40 degree F stream of air at their chest will give them physical pain.

No, this isn’t a one size fits all problem/solution. The correct solution is actually to cool the whole car while allowing the user control over how to cool themselves by adjusting the fans/doors. It would be much better however if car manufacturers included better PID controllers as well as moisture sensors inside and outside the cabin to create better climate control. In a car that really shouldn’t be difficult, at least with the windows closed. It’s not like a house with multiple rooms that have different exposure to heating and cooling as well as sunlight.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by wolverine876 on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:27PM (#27789634)
I didn't say it one solution would suit everyone. I offered a tip.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by squeaky-clean on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:02PM (#27789496)
The problem is solved by letting me point the vent away from my body to cool the ambient temperature of my car.

I don't want to have cold hands, arms, and face, while my back and my feet sweat.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by wolverine876 on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:46PM (#27789731)
Cooling my extremities seems to cool the rest of me effectively. Cooling the ambient temperature creates another problem, increasing the ambient temperature for the rest of the world; it's a big problem. However, a car is a small space; I expect the climate impact would be relatively small.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by imtringued on Saturday July 10, 2021 @05:54AM (#27792327)
Somehow dogs can get away with cooling through their tongue but the naked apes still complain about their whole arms being cooled?
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by wrycoder on Saturday July 10, 2021 @02:05PM (#27795241)
Maybe humans sweat more than dogs and so feel a much greater effect from evaporative cooling?
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by porphyra on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:46PM (#27785654)
But having the whole cabin be at a cooler temperature allows the heat transfer to happen uniformly across your whole body, which is a lot more comfortable than having a vent pointed at yourself.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by easygenes on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:01PM (#27786558)
I find having a vent on my hands or face MUCH more comfortable. I’ve lived in some of the hottest places on earth and indeed on the worst days there would never be a point where you’d feel cool enough without blowing the vents directly at you. Even in more temperate climates the airflow over my face is just refreshing, and helps keep my hands completely dry for a better grip.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by comex on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:20PM (#27787487)
> I’ve lived in some of the hottest places on earth and indeed on the worst days there would never be a point where you’d feel cool enough without blowing the vents directly at you.

Surely if an air conditioner brings an indoor area to a given temperature (and humidity), it doesn't matter what the temperature is outside. So what gives? Is the air conditioner not powerful enough? Do people not want the inside to be as cold as in other locales, since they're used to the heat? The latter would make sense, but then I don't understand why you'd need to be blowing the vents directly at you.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by easygenes on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:19PM (#27790611)
Well the topic is car A/C and indeed if the outside temperature is 45C (113F), and the air conditioner only produces a difference of 20C, and your target is 22C then you’ll fall short of that by a few degrees.

Also with car A/C (or indoor spaces which take in a lot of direct sunlight), hotter days tend to be the result of greater insolation. If direct sunlight is hitting your skin on a clear summer day it has a significant warming effect which you would want to offset with more ambient or active cooling.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by galangalalgol on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:12PM (#27789550)
It happens in houses too. People will run their heater warmer than they cool their house to in summer. My theory is that the wall temperature is causing more or less radiant heating and the thermostat gets adjusted to compensate. So if the car body is much hotter it will feel hotter even with the same air temp.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by IgorPartola on Friday July 09, 2021 @05:26PM (#27788727)
That’s because you have good blood circulation. Blood acts as your body’s coolant and transfers heat to your hands. Lots of people don’t have this so what they would get is the sensation of being very hot except their hands which will get very cold. Not a pleasant combo.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by jlokier on Sunday July 11, 2021 @07:13PM (#27805288)
Ironically, given the context of this discussion, those people whose bodies maintain a higher differential (what you called poor circulation) are more efficient at maintaining their core temperature in other circumstances.

For example, you are out walking on cold ground. Your feet get cold while your core stays warm. This is ideal for keeping heat in your core. You may survive where those with "good" circulation would lose heat too fast.

Although this may be due to lower rate of blood circulation, there is another effect independent of circulation rate.

Heat-exchanger effects along limbs depending on the layout of your veins and arteries, which varies among people. The extreme example is penguins, whose feet are on ice yet their bodies retain heat because of heat exchange as blood circulates in their legs. It maintains a temperature differential along the legs. I'm not suggesting people have specific anatomical structure like penguins, rather I'm saying the natural variation in the placement of veins and arteries in human limbs will result in a range of heat-exchange factors among different people, which is a separate factor from circulation rate, and may indicates a thermally efficient body for some situations.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:46PM (#27786365)
no, that's just rationalizing. you're sitting uncomfortably for 10-15 minutes waiting for that temperature to be reached[0], and even then, heat transfer is maximized by having the air flow over you. the edge case might be when there are like 4+ people in a car for which there are not enough vents, but even then, pointing the vents at people, even somewhat indirectly, is better.

heat transfer is what makes you feel cool/warm, not temperature, and air flow promotes convection (as well as conduction). it's why metal feels cooler (or warmer) than plastic at the same temperature (e.g., differing heat transfer coefficients).

[0]: note that most car trips are less than ~15 minutes, at which point, all that heating/cooling is wasted as you flush it out the door.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by nicoburns on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:00PM (#27786549)
> note that most car trips are less than ~15 minutes, at which point, all that heating/cooling is wasted as you flush it out the door.

Talking about energy efficiency: if your car trip is <15 minutes, then ideally you shouldn't be using a car at all!

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by oblib on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:25PM (#27786818)
> Talking about energy efficiency: if your car trip is <15 minutes, then ideally you shouldn't be using a car at all!

That depends on where you live. It take me about 5-7 minutes to drive to the nearest store (a "Dollar General" store). That store is about 2.5 miles away, so about a 5 mile round trip. Average walking speed is about 3.2 mph, so a +2 hour trip walking it.

The next nearest store is about 10-12 miles away (a grocery store). Most of those miles are on a road with a 55mph limit but these are curvy hilly roads so probably closer to a 40-45 mph average. That's a +6 hour walk.

Riding a bicycle is akin to death wish on those 2 lane roads with no shoulder.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by ajuc on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:39PM (#27786972)
This sounds so weird. Like a place that has no general store in walking distance implies end of the world but then you say it has bad traffic too. And 2-lane road with no shoulder implies it's not a highway in the middle of nowhere but a place where people live. Why has nobody opened a shop closer? Seems like easy money.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by URSpider94 on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:34PM (#27787631)
He didn’t say it has bad traffic, he said it’s dangerous. I grew up in a place like this - isolated houses along a 2-lane road through the countryside with no shoulder. It’s a local road, but the speed limit is typically 55 mph because the housing density is very low. There’s not much traffic, but the traffic that is there is flying down the curvy road just trying to hang on. All of the stores are centralized in small towns and villages spaced 20 miles apart or so.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by ajuc on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:42PM (#27787719)
Yeah I just have no reference. Here villages spaced 30 km from each other doesn't happen. It's usually walking distance.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by crooked-v on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:58PM (#27788416)
To get a better idea of that sort of context, look at Texas or Montana in Google Maps and zoom in on one of the low-population areas. You'll see plenty of little towns with no public transit that would be literally days away from each other if walking.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by oblib on Saturday July 10, 2021 @10:52AM (#27793698)
You hit the nail on the head. I live in rural southern Missouri in the Ozark Mountains.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by rpenm on Friday July 09, 2021 @06:57PM (#27789469)
Likely restrictive zoning. In much of North America, commercial and mixed-use buildings are not permitted in areas zoned for single-family residences.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by nicoburns on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:47PM (#27787071)
> It take me about 5-7 minutes to drive to the nearest store (a "Dollar General" store)

Assuming you live in an urban area, this seem like absolute madness to me. Does this not represent a huge opportunity for someone to start a local grocery store business?

I have never lived further than 15 minutes walk to the local grocery store (and I considered that a pretty inconvenient location). Where I live now I have a 2 local shops ~1 minute walk away, with a small high street with a small supermarket ~10 minutes walk away. And I would say this is pretty typical across the entirety of urban/suburban UK.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by kube-system on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:11PM (#27787390)
US post-war neighborhoods built after the advent of cars, were mostly designed for them. It's not madness, as much as it is the inevitable result of consumer demands for what was at the time, new housing.

> Does this not represent a huge opportunity for someone to start a local grocery store business?

Those stores do mostly exist where they are viable. The limiting factors are:

1. many of those neighborhoods don't have commercial space, and are filled with people who live there specifically because they do not want to live by commercial property, and support zoning regulations to keep grocery stores from being built besides their property.

2. because many people do have cars, neighborhood grocery stores are sometimes at a commercial disadvantage, because many of their potential customers can easily drive to stores with greater selection.

I do like living in more lively neighborhoods, and I picked one where I do have two small grocery stores within 15 minutes walking distance. The thing is, they're both ethnic grocery stores with limited selections. I try to support them when I can but to get everything that I want to buy in one shopping trip, it's much quicker and easier to drive out of my neighborhood to a much larger store.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by lotsofpulp on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:43PM (#27787013)
In the US, that frequently involves crossing 6 to 8 lane roads with 40mph+ speed limits, and 200ft setbacks to allow for huge parking lots. Or an actual highway where only motorized vehicles are allowed.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:24PM (#27786808)
if only we could collectively realize this and reconfigure our urban spaces according to that consideration! for instance, adding many, many more street trees everywhere, replacing street parking with protected bike lanes, and converting a lane on major streets to dedicated bus lanes with synchronized/sensored lights.

but yes, for those majority short trips, the wind in your hair on a (electric) bike/scooter is likely just as cooling, and the trip likely no longer.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by Tarsul on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:32PM (#27786887)
I wonder how improved traffic could be if we somehow had managed that people driving alone would be driving in a vehicle that is suited for exactly 1 person. (although now I'm having pictures in my head of the insane traffic in India's cities... :))

Maybe electric vehicles could be an incentive to downsize vehicles?

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:59PM (#27787247)
for sure. on top of energy taxes, we could assess escalating maintenance fees on cars by size and weight, to encourage right-sized vehicles, especially in metro areas where it really matters.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by conk on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:11PM (#27787983)
There are several studies on the relationship between vehicle weight and road wear and tear. 1 fully loaded semi does more damage than nearly 10,000 cars. The reality is if costs were assigned appropriately large aspects of life would become unworkable.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by Dylan16807 on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:50PM (#27789760)
> that's just rationalizing

That's not called for.

> you're sitting uncomfortably for 10-15 minutes waiting for that temperature to be reached

It doesn't take that long, and you can compromise by hitting yourself with some of the full-power cooling until the cabin reaches a comfortable temperature.

> heat transfer is what makes you feel cool/warm, not temperature, and air flow promotes convection (as well as conduction).

Heat transfer yes, but everywhere on the body. You can't just look at the total.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by chmod600 on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:22PM (#27786794)
You are arguing too technically here. How people feel and what they like is very subjective. If people don't like air blowing unnaturally at them, no amount of arguing will change that.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:28PM (#27786848)
you're implying that there is something incorrigible about such feelings, and that it's useless to point out other, objective factors that can impact decision-making (and habits). if that were true, we'd be a way more predictable, and boring, species than we are.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by wvenable on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:39PM (#27786970)
The purpose of air conditioning in comfort -- so arguing that people can make themselves slightly less comfortable by doing something different is moot. It's even more energy efficient to not run the AC at all so why argue about vent position?
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by drdeca on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:45PM (#27787037)
I don’t think they are implying that. If someone’s preferences are based on metric A, and another method provides better results with regards to metric B, even if metrics A and B are correlated, this needn’t be a reason for the person to prefer the proposed alternate method, because the current method may still provide results with regards to metric A.

Telling someone that tomato is a more vibrant red than chicken, will not compel them to prefer the taste of a tomato to the taste of chicken. (In this example the “correlation” bit doesn’t apply, but, whatever.)

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by datameta on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:34PM (#27786238)
One method optimizes for energy efficiency and the other for comfort.

This material is a passive method that I think rather soon recoups any extra energy expended during manufacturing.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by tqi on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:12PM (#27787994)
You really think people point vents away from themselves because they don't understand how heat transfer works, rather than because they dislike having the air blowing directly on them?
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by droopyEyelids on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:15PM (#27788034)
Not many people know it, but blasting detainees with air conditioning for prolonged periods is one of the Enhanced Interrogation techniques we use on detainees in Guantanamo Bay
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by bootlooped on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:39PM (#27788242)
Ever since I got lasik my eyes get dry and uncomfortable if I have dry air moving over my face for too long. This is what happens if the vent is pointed anywhere around my upper body sadly.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by wolverine876 on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:35PM (#27788201)
I could not agree more: People don't wear insulation (e.g., sweaters) in winter, the heat escapes from their body, and then they heat the entire house/office in order to warm themselves up again. You already have the heat! It's getting away!

Summer has similar situations. Point a small fan at yourself and you can save a lot on cooling the entire unit. A fan is blowing a gentle breeze across my hands right now (tip: aim it across the keyboard; it cools the laptop and you, and it doesn't dehydrate me). As long as the ambient temperature is below about 85, I'm fine. Think of it: 80 degrees, in the shade, with a breeze. That's pretty nice.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by dan_quixote on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:58PM (#27786529)
If the vehicle's air conditioner compressor only runs at one stage, does it even matter? Are there any automotive air compressors with multiple stages/speeds?
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by Unklejoe on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:41PM (#27787709)
I suspect they use something like a TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) that is found on newer household AC units.

This acts as sort of a regulator for the system, which ultimately ends up reducing the load on the compressor as the evaporator is colder.

So while the compressor runs at one stage in the sense of it being directly driven by the engine, the resistance to spin the compressor varies based on the load of the AC system.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by clairity on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:15PM (#27786717)
that's valid, but even then, there's also the efficiency of whisking away heat from your body to consider, which is the more direct/relevant efficiency concern here.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by robscallsign on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:49PM (#27787778)
Your pithy analysis seems to entirely discount having passengers in the back seat, or multiple rows of seating like minivans.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by kebman on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:26PM (#27788123)
I think you're giving them too little credit. I'd rather have even and comfortable warmth through-out the cabin, than having to sit in front of a hot draft the entire ride, despite what might be more effective. That is a matter of comfort, and not physics.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by Broken_Hippo on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:37PM (#27786269)
You can point them at you if you only have front seat passengers - if that is comfortable for you. If you have folks in the back seat or want to keep your groceries coolish, whole cabin cooling is much better.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by cjohansson on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:19PM (#27788065)
I think what is evident for all parents is the importance of cooling down the entire car, not just the driver or front passenger but all kids in the back, sometimes with a lot of stuff in the way of the vents
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by ARandomerDude on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:16PM (#27787442)
I use a 3-step approach: point the vents at me while I'm very warm, then away from me when I start to get comfortable. If I actually get cold, I then turn the blower speed down.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by throwaway284534 on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:25PM (#27786821)
Personally I don’t enjoy the sensation of the air blowing against my skin. It’s distracting and usually moves my hair around when I’m trying to focus on the road.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by echlebek on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:54PM (#27788382)
People sit in the back seat of cars too.