> 95% of vegans don’t do a good job and are visibly malnourished

Uh, is it even worth asking for a source for this?

The film The Game Changers has plenty of examples of thriving humans on a vegan diet, it is the opposite of what you claim.

You are just showing a bias.

That movie is biased propaganda advocating a particular diet, not a proper scientific study. You can certainly cherry pick a few elite athletes who perform well on vegan diets, but the vast majority of elite athletes are omnivores. Ever some of the movie subjects ate certain animal products such as eggs.

If you search around a bit you'll also find numerous anecdotal reports from elite athletes who tried vegan diets and found that they seemed to have more difficulty recovering from injuries. There seem to be some subtle nutritional deficiencies which aren't fully captured in the USRDA. This issue is difficult to study in a rigorous, controlled way due to individual differences so we'll probably never get conclusive data one way or the other.

> The film The Game Changers has plenty of examples of thriving humans on a vegan diet… You are just showing a bias.

I am showing a bias and the silly vegan propaganda movie isn’t? OK.

Btw, if you want some examples of veganism not working as advertised, look up the ongoing “vegans: the epitome of malnourishment” series on YouTube. It tracks various vegan influencers throughout the years.

Replace "vegan" with "stop cruelty". It's not a diet. It's a mindset not wanting to cause unnecessary suffering.

Why would you want to continue funding a cruel and biosphere destroying industry (factory farming) if you don't need their products to survive. In our society eating animal flesh is mostly to experience culinary pleasures. If you look at it from a logical perspective, it doesn't make sense, all that waste and inefficiencies in that system - tech folks should appreciate that.

Veganism doesn't mean you're automatically on a healthy diet. You can be vegan on Pringles and Coke.

Game Changers just shows you can thrive at an athletic level on a plant based diet.

We humans gave up other horrific practices from the past - so the future is vegan (reduced cruelty), but we don't have to wait - we can start now.

> It's not a diet. It's a mindset not wanting to cause unnecessary suffering.

This religious marketing isn’t helping your cause.

> Why would you want to continue funding a cruel

I am strictly opposed to animal cruelty. Killing animals at all is a net negative for me. However, it’s not my primary concern and I also don’t think the marginal improvement veganism provides animals is significant.

> and biosphere destroying

This is mostly bullshit.

> (factory farming)

I am opposed to the most abysmal methods of meat production.

> if you don't need their products to survive.

I need them to be healthy. Vegans can object all they want but the truth is right there for me to see. Whenever a scrawny balding vegan with sunken eyes tells me they’re perfectly healthy, I know they’re deluded and not giving me good advice.

> Game Changers just shows you can thrive at an athletic level on a plant based diet.

It’s a few cherry picked examples. In reality going vegan will tank your athletic performance and injury resistance. https://www.lonesomelands.com/new-blog/2019/9/16/t2amoscp1u1...

> We humans gave up other horrific practices from the past - so the future is vegan (reduced cruelty)

I actually agree with you on this. People in the future will view animal consumption like we view slavery.

> but we don't have to wait - we can start now.

Unfortunately this is not true, if we want to stay healthy. Give it 100 years and maybe the tech will be where it needs to be.

Thanks for commenting in a more civil manner and agreeing that where most of the meat comes from (factory farming) is abysmal.

> This religious marketing isn’t helping your cause.

Why is it religious marketing? What is religious about it? It's about ethics - not religion.

Most humans not practicing slavery for example, is that also being religious? What's wrong with having moral principles? We say killing other humans is wrong. We say animal cruelty is wrong and yet a lot of humans practice or support it on a daily basis. Mostly because people don't know the reality of where their animal meat comes from and what the externalities are.

This is down to some very good propaganda campaigns by the meat and dairy industry actually.

Funny that there are things like Ag-Gag laws. What is this industry afraid of? That people would find out how horrific it is and god forbid making the right choice and not buy their products anymore?

There is also the human cost. Could you work in a factory farm? Or just a slaughter house that kills any animals whether from factory farms or 'happy' farms? Could you kill animals day in day out, hearing their screams, smelling the blood and feces?

Reports by folks who did that said they had to suppress their compassion and actually suffered from PTSD. A guest on Joe Rogan's show said he worked in that industry and couldn't last more than 2 weeks and he was an MMA guy, so could be considered tough.

> This is mostly bullshit.

Can you provide your sources? My comment was based on studies by the UN, Oxford University and other academic sources [0] [1]. Not just merely a blog post by some bloke with an opinion.

> It’s a few cherry picked examples.

And yet you're cherry picking yourself. Here are more athletes who chose to give up meat: https://www.greatveganathletes.com/all-athletes/ - it's a long list.

Have you actually watched the documentary?

It's funny - the creator of the documentary, ex MMA fighter, actually said his performance went up. This is echoed by many other athletes.

But they didn't say they are injury resistant.

But most of us are not professional athletes, so it's a moot point. But if we chose to operate at a more athletic level, a plant based diet can still provide all we need.

If you choose not to pay for cruelty - you still have to make an effort to eat healthily, which is easier to find out how nowadays. We are not carnivores. Yes we can eat meat, but it's not required for our survival if we have other food sources.

> I need them to be healthy.

You can be healthy on a plant-based diet. Check this resource by medical experts: https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrit...

If people absolutely can't give up animal meat, then at least hunt or raise and kill your own to ensure that suffering can be minimized to an absolute minimal level. But guess what, most of us couldn't do that and it's not scalable.

----

[0] https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2019/05/natur...

[1] https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environme...

> Most humans not practicing slavery for example, is that also being religious?

Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor to globally eliminate slavery. Modern political Veganism is also Christian in origin, although it's been adopted as a religious crusade by Western State Secularists as well (which I suspect you are from what you've said so far).

> Can you provide your sources

I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense. E.g. the feat mongering about cow farts. Here are two key terms for why I don't care about cow farts: bison, and fungal decomposition.

> Have you actually watched the documentary?

Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage? I've read the synopsis, and I see why it's total bullshit. https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers...

> the creator of the documentary, ex MMA fighter, actually said his performance went up

Wow! They found a who guy claims his performance went up! Amazing!

For every person who claims they're doing better on veganism (questionably, in most cases) there are dozens who match the stereotype.

> We are not carnivores.

I don't know about you, but my evolutionary ancestors (early Northern Europeans) were carnivores for at least 30-40% of the year. This is obvious if you think about it for 5 minutes. They almost certainly were still heavily meat-oriented most of the rest of the year.

> then at least hunt or raise and kill your own

I have done this in the past, and would recommend it, but as you say it's not scalable. That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices.

> You can be healthy on a plant-based diet. Check this resource by medical experts:

There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible.

In order for me to seriously consider the idea that veganism might be healthy, you need to explain something to me: why do 90+% of vegans look like crap? I'm not trying to be mean here; I am just completely unwilling to adopt a diet which will make me weak, androgen deficient, and emaciated, which seems to describe almost every vegan I know.

Thanks for commenting again... I appreciate it's not easy to keep up the debate once a post dropped off the HN front page.

My comments:

> Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor

I wasn't aware of that. But I'm talking about how it is today. Most humans, religious or not, agree that slavery is wrong. Same with people choosing to adopt a vegan mindset.

It's wrong to oppress and exploit billions of sentient beings every year, just so we can enjoy a burger, when it's not necessary anymore for our survival. Nothing religious or cult like about that. Just being principled and saying no to cruelty and destruction. Simple as that.

> I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense

It's not just the UN. The other link I shared was a 5 year Oxford Uni study. Is that nonsense too?

There are countless of other academic studies about the damage our current large scale animal agriculture causes. It's not just GHGs. It's pollution and habitat loss which causes biodiversity loss.

Damian Mander, ex special forces guy who now uses his skills to protect endangered animals, said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUMGBwgGYWw&t=100s

> That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices.

Any more details on this? With what would we replace factory farming, which is already highly optimized to get the most out of the land and animals (hence why animal welfare is so low or non existent).

> There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible.

I wasn't clear on this one. These are not just some dieticians. PCRM - the Physicians Committee combines the clout and expertise of more than 17,000 physicians.

Again, have a look at https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrit...

> why do 90+% of vegans look like crap?

There are millions of people out there who don't eat meat or don't consume any animals products. I doubt you've met them all.

Again, vegan doesn't necessarily mean healthy. You have to make an effort to eat healthily. Likewise eating meat doesn't mean you're automatically eating healthily.

> Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage?

Thanks for sharing the biolayne article. I've not come across that one yet. He claims Gamechangers was biased, probably to an extend, and yet he is very biased and even funded by the egg industry[1].

But the most important point is that he agrees that you can function at an elite athletic level on a plant-based diet[0]. That was my whole point. Most of us are not elite athletes, so if they can do it, it should be even easier for folks not operating at that physical level. A lot of our food is already fortified with B12 or vitamin D, so you don't really have to do anything special. So many great meat free and nutritious recipes out there. I'm not bald (btw, a plant based diet doesn't cause someone to be bald) or scrawny and my doc said my blood work looks excellent and I should continue with whatever I'm doing.

My thought process goes as follows:

- We know that our current meat addiction is not sustainable and it can't be our main source of protein to feed the world.

- We know animals suffer immense cruelty when they are being factory farmed or when they are being processed in slaughter houses.

- We know the working conditions are horrendous in these slaughterhouses. Why would we want other fellow humans to go through that? I'd rather chop up vegetables all than killing and gutting animals all day. Which one would you choose?

- We know we can survive and thrive without having to kill animals and consume their flesh.

The most important step is that people say no to factory farming and vote with their wallet. This will force the market to come up with more sustainable alternatives, which is already happening.

So given this choice, why wouldn't we go with the option that causes the least harm on multiple levels?

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[0] "I’m not saying you can’t be an elite athlete and be vegan, you certainly can, but you can also be an elite athlete and NOT be vegan [...]"

[1] In summary, Layne throws out accusations of cherry picking and bias, and yet exhibits unbelievable bias and cherry picking. His critique of the movie is more a critique of veganism. I really don’t think he watched the whole movie, and I am certain most of the on line critics have not seen a single minute.

The movie was designed to show that you can get enough protein and be successful as a vegan athlete, even at a very high level of competition.

From: http://proteinaholic.com/response-to-layne-nortons-review-of...

I tend to avoid the word "propaganda" where I think the term "one-sided" would qualitatively suffice, but those YouTube videos are fairly close to the definition of propaganda. The series is essentially one of the common hate-driven cherry-picking machines the internet is constructed out of. This is coming from me, a non-vegan who thinks that adequate nutrition is much more difficult for vegans, and therefore by the very laws of statistics, if that assumption is true, then vegans are in fact on average less well-nourished compared to people with adequate access to food and no dietary restrictions.

Have you watched it?

>you can look at them

All of them at once??

Thankfully, due to the principle of object permanence, it suffices to look at them one at a time.

And you're able to look at all of them, one at a time? The plural of anecdote is not data.

The plural of datum is data, and when you look at something that produces a datum.

I've seen a lot of people lately making the "you’re made out of animal parts, so eat animals" argument, which is reasonable on its face. But there's a pretty serious problem with it: those animals get everything they need from plants. And now we're in very murky territory, because now you have to prove—not just hypothesize, but prove—that the human animal is different from other animals in some very specific ways, or you have to weaken the initial claim to the point where it doesn't really say anything at all.

Dental are actually a great way to show this. The diversity of teeth in our mouths are evidence that we evolved to eat an omnivorous diet.

Good that you should mention dentition, given that a plant-based diet causes humans’ teeth to rot out.

Human teeth, like human metabolism, support the consumption of plant material, but not very well.

Interesting - can you share your sources?

I'd like to read more about this.

My teeth have not fallen out yet and my dentist gives an OK after many years on a plant based diet.

> because now you have to prove—not just hypothesize, but prove—that the human animal is different from other animals in some very specific ways

Are you being ironic? We know what a ruminant digestive system looks like and why humans can’t do what they do.

I love this response. Such a pleasure when a Registered Dietitian chimes in with an informed opinion based on data on the internet.

If anyone want to get some high quality info from an actual registered dietitian, check out Simnett Nutrition https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpyhJZhJQWKDdJCR07jPY-Q

Since some experts get some things wrong some of the time, we should not trust any people who study things deeply. Anecdotal evidence is the only real truth.

If a field systematically makes wrong predictions (not “some experts some of the time”), you should not trust subsequent predictions from that field.

As opposed to some random guy on the internet?

It really isn't that hard. All protein on the planet comes from plants and photosynthesis. Dietary supplemental vitamins are needed on both a vegan and non-vegan diet. Human teeth cannot eat raw animal skin/meet, they don't cut it. Watch "The Game Changers".

Read the book Eat to Live. It is evidence based, written by an M.D. and has nearly 1,000 references/studies. I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it!

> It really isn't that hard

Then why is almost every vegan so malnourished?

> It is evidence based

I doubt it. Nutrition “science” right now has abysmally low evidentiary standards. We don’t have a scientific (i.e. experimental) basis for making strong low-level nutritional predictions beyond “if you don’t get any of this you will die eventually”. Basically the only thing you can do right now is make sweeping observations (“what is the apparent health of populations on this diet?”) and a-priori reasoning (“what is my prior on the evolutionary optimization criteria affecting my metabolic system?”).

> I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it!

I’ve been eating keto/carnivore for two years now and I feel great (so not looking to improve on that front). I also don’t have any health problems associated with nutritional deficiency (in fact I am in perfect health, and I wasn’t when I ate the S.A.D.), and I don’t have to put in any special effort to maintain that state of affairs.

Why do you believe that almost every vegan is malnourished? How do you know who is vegan, and how do you know who is malnourished? Are you basing this off of anecdotes you've read of people eating plant-based and then feeling unhealthy? If so, that's not very reliable info.

On the other hand, here is every large nutrition institute around the world agreeing that veganism can be totally healthy for all stages of life: https://youaretheirvoice.com/pages/the-clear-consensus

> How do you know who is vegan

They’ll usually tell you pretty quickly.

> here is every large nutrition institute around the world

Why would you ever trust a “large nutrition institute”? Who is the kind of person who would come to power at a place like that? Certainly not someone who is dispassionately interested in promoting human health. It’s mostly vegans, seventh day adventists, and other dietary-religious groups.

When has a “large nutrition institute” ever released dietary advice that stood the test of time?

If you're saying they are unreliable as source, the onus is on you to say why. You just posed some questions without actually stating anything, made an assumption with no evidence ("Certainly not someone who is dispassionately interested in promoting human health", "It’s mostly vegans, seventh day adventists, and other dietary-religious groups.")

So, do you actually have any sources on why we shouldn't trust them?

This is an HN comment thread, not a scientific paper. There’s no “onus” on me to do anything, and if there were, it certainly wouldn’t be up to you who got to make comments without fulfilling some evidentiary ritual. If you’re actually interested, you could very easily google it, but I’ll give you a starting point: https://www.nutritioncoalition.us/news/2020-dietary-guidelin...

Most vegans I know do not tell anyone. The number of closet, covert vegans is significantly higher than the overt, "preachy" vegans.

If you go to a restaurant or eat with them in any context it becomes obvious very quickly.

Read again what you just said..

They aren't. Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing?

> Watch The Game Changers and read Eat to Live.

The Game Changers was manifestly stupid propaganda. If you fell for it, this is a really bad sign wrt your ability to filter out dietary-pseudoscientific nonsense.

> Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing

The average obese American is on a diet much closer to a vegan diet than a meat-based diet. They get most of their calories from bread, rice, peanut oil, soy products, corn syrup, canola oil, etc. etc.

> The average obese American is on a diet much closer to a vegan diet than a meat-based diet. They get most of their calories from bread, rice, peanut oil, soy products, corn syrup, canola oil, etc. etc.

And meat, cheese and eggs.

The average American gets the overwhelming majority of their calories from vegan items. https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/december/a-look-at...

> The Game Changers was manifestly stupid propaganda. If you fell for it, this is a really bad sign wrt your ability to filter out dietary-pseudoscientific nonsense.

How is watching olympic athletes, proving they are getting even better, propaganda?

I feel like you didn't even watch the film.

Watch The Game Changers and read Eat to Live.