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Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by andai on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:23PM (#27595244)
What happened to the lightning network? (Serious question, I am out of the loop.)
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by thesausageking on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:33PM (#27595360)
It launched, is usable in most wallets, and is starting to get adoption. It's going to be a key piece of the recently passed legislation in El Salvador which makes Bitcoin legal tender.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by simias on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:35PM (#27595387)
Using a closed, centralized implementation that doesn't accept third party nodes. The use of bitcoin is pure marketing, it's just MySQL with extra steps.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by doomroot on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:14PM (#27595868)
The ceo of strike said they are continually promoting that banks and businesses in the El Salvador operate their own lightning network nodes & not to solely rely on them. Only the government’s official (but optional) app will be a wrapper around strike.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by krick on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:09PM (#27595817)
This is interesting. Obviously, I heard about the whole "El Salvador something something Bitcoin" deal, but am completely unaware of the actual situation. Can somebody point me in the direction of some nice writeup explaining these details? I can only vaguely imagine how one can take Bitcoin and make it essentially an extension of SWIFT, and struggle to clearly visualize what the implications of this are.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by counternotions on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:05PM (#27596488)
From Strike CEO Jack Maller [1]:

Let’s walk through a user story. I want to send $1,000 to a friend of mine in El Salvador:

* When I initiate the $1,000 payment, Strike debits my existing USD balance.

* Strike then automatically converts my $1,000 to bitcoins ready for use in its infrastructure using its real-time automated risk management and trading infrastructure.

* Strike then moves the bitcoins across the Gulf of Mexico where it arrives in our Central American infrastructure in less than a second and for no cost.

* Strike then takes the bitcoins and automatically converts them back into USDT (synthetic digital dollar known as Tether) using its real-time automated risk management and trading infrastructure.

* Strike then credits the existing user with the USDT to their Strike account.

[1] https://jimmymow.medium.com/announcing-strike-global-2392b90...

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by krick on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:34AM (#27600826)
It seemed like an answer at first, but actually this answers absolutely nothing and I'm not even sure how it's related to the topic being discussed:

* This guy starts talking about sending USD, but ends up talking about receiving USDT. USD != USDT. And while there are problems with sending USD across the border, there're absolutely no problem with sending USDT. And there's absolutely no problem buying USDT wherever you are. (But, what's important, there might be problems actually converting your USDT into USD.)

* Since we end up buying USDT with USD, the word "Bitcoin" in the middle of the story seems redundant and actually confusing.

* There's nothing about Lightning here. I mean, you can talk about how you use Lightning to transfer BTC inside Strike as much as you want, but if BTC is irrelevant to the user story, so is Lightning.

* I'm not sure how Strike and this user story are relevant at all. It started out about El Salvador accepting BTC as a legal tender, and how using it in actual transactions w/o lightning is problematic due to low TPS. How sending USD to El Salvador is relevant here at all?

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by kissickas on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @09:15PM (#27599555)
Is Tether now backed by a reasonable amount of real dollars? I'm surprised to see it being used in such a serious application after years of hearing how it was a scam.

edit: looked it up, still looks like a total scam. I hope El Salvador is able to get through this without getting screwed and I guess I'll assume Strike (first time I've heard of it) is just as shady until I hear otherwise:

https://coingeek.com/crypto-crime-cartel-tether-using-its-st...

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by ulzeraj on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:56AM (#27601967)
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:04PM (#27597189)
There is no bitcoin needed for this at all its does not even move on the chain for the transfer.

Both sides are Strike entities all this does is use bitcoin as a bridge for USD to USD which is completely pointless as both sides are USD.

You could just buy USDT (or another stabelcoin) and send it there.

Its a different story if there is actually a switch in currency needed. There is this famous and from bitcoin people often hated company called Ripple that specializes on cross-border settlement using crypto as a bridge currency. For that however the crypto must be actually moved and be sold locally for the local currency. And for that to work without risk due to volatility it must be fast. Hence they use XRP (4 sec) instead of bitcoin (10+ min). They call it ODL (On-Demand Liquidity).

See https://ripple.com/ripplenet/on-demand-liquidity/

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by krick on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:41AM (#27600869)
Please somebody explain why it's downvoted. Ignoring digression about XRP, this is exactly what I read from the parent comment. Judging by the user-story above, all this talk about how BTC is being "sent" (which, as we all know, is a small lie on it's own, since unlike fiat, BTC is never really being sent anywhere) seems just to distract us from the fact that we just end up buying USDT for USD. No BTC involvement required.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @07:30AM (#27603236)
Most of HN down votes anything about bitcoin and a few HN bitcoin fans down vote anything "negative" about bitcoin and certainly everything involving XRP. So to no surprise this is being down voted.

>No BTC involvement required.

Totally correct. Remittance over a bridge currency only make sense under very specific conditions, which include that the input currency and the output currency are different. And a direct exchange is not possible or not cheap.

The traditional banking system does this as well, they usually use USD as bridge. To pair every currency with every currency simply isn't feasible and the low volume pairs would have no liquidity anyway. Its basically the same as with goods if you have wood but want metal you use a currency as bridge because there is no market to sell wood for metal. Now if you also have a location difference between the market where you want to sell and the mark where you want to buy then you actually can use the bridge currency to move from one market (location) to another market (location).

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by pixelperfect on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:34PM (#27596133)
The legislation that made Bitcoin legal tender in El Salvador does not legislate the use of Strike. Businesses can use whatever system they want, as long as they can accept payment in Bitcoin. Strike is providing a service that allows any business to take Bitcoin lightning payments and have them automatically converted to dollars, for businesses that do not want to hold Bitcoin. It's not fair to just call this a "sql database" because it's connected to an open payment network and the customer can use whatever means they want to pay the business, even if the business decides to just uses Strike.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by WanderPanda on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:53PM (#27595618)
Wait, it does not allow third party nodes? What is my Raspberry Pi right next to me doing? Just pretending to be a Lightning Node?
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by cmckn on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:54PM (#27595628)
Parent is referring to El Salvador's proposed usage, not the wider lightning network.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by delaaxe on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:50PM (#27595571)
Source?
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by lawn on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:55PM (#27595635)
They will be using Strike, which is a custodial wallet.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by espadrine on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:20PM (#27595938)
I am puzzled by one thorn it is intended to solve.

In the case of merchant/customer interactions, the LN channel blocks customer funds from their balance, but they will never receive money from the merchant. So that balance will be sent to the merchant, payment by payment.

Not only does that block funds for the customer (which wants to reduce those, to avoid blocking too much, but that reduces the number of payments that can be made off-chain), but it also blocks the merchant’s reception of those payments: the merchant wants to be able to spend it soon, but it can only spend it on-chain.

That is compounded by the fact that most merchant/customer interactions are rare one-offs in the real world. I just don’t buy stamps every day.

LN channels are only most useful when the two parties exchange money bidirectionally on average.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by doomroot on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:52PM (#27596345)
It’s an ongoing problem for sure, but the simple answer is users maintaining multiple well connected channels.

It’s very common on lightning to pay liquidity providers to balance your channels to you. Lightning Labs has a service called loop where you can pay them an onchain transaction and it will make a lightning network payment to your channel for that amount, thus giving you more spend liquidity. Loop is sweet cause it does this in a non custodial way, look into it.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by hypnotist on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:35PM (#27595380)
El Salvador not Colombia
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by thesausageking on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:37PM (#27595407)
Yes. Not sure why I wrote Colombia. Thx.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by xwolfi on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:22PM (#27596709)
El Salvador, the military dictatorship that managed to make western dreamer hype it like a shitcoin...
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by kemonocode on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:39PM (#27595434)
It exists, and it very much works [0] but it has yet to reach the massive levels of adoption people would have expected by now. Simple as that.

[0] https://1ml.com/

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by WanderPanda on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:55PM (#27595638)
Afaik it is still considered #reckless to put bigger amounts on your lightning node and at least the "lnd" implementation seems to be in "beta" (according to their Github releases). Idk about the roadmap for a solid, production ready version is. But in this case safe seems to be better than sorry
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by Taek on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:42PM (#27595459)
Lightning network more or less failed to live up to the hype. Problems like routing complexity, liquidity, and a lack of on-chain space to open and close channels have delayed/limited its impact.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by SnowProblem on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:05PM (#27596494)
To expand on this, to receive money over Lightning, you need someone else to lock up their bitcoins for you. This is called inbound liquidity, and the problem of users getting inbound liquidity is no joke. Lightning Labs recently launched Lightning Pool to help with this, but fees range from 5% to 25%. Uncompetitive. If you think about it too, it makes sense, because anyone locking up their bitcoins for others should expect a several % return, or else they would loan it out at similar rates. Current Lightning wallets are basically giving their users inbound liquidity for free using VC funds, but is this honestly sustainable? There are other problems with Lightning, like the requirement to be online to receive payments, watchtowers, UX complexity of channels. Some of these are solvable through centralization. But that is why you'll hear people say Lightning recreate the banking model, because realistically that looks like the only way it could work. Oddly, this was all pointed out by many people over the years, but Lightning seems to get endless forgiveness in its inability to deliver, because it is BTC's only hope to maintain the peer-to-peer cash narrative.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:50PM (#27597014)
The looking up of liquidity is the whole reason LN can not scale or be cheap ever.

Today people in crypto may be willing to look up bitcoins they hold long term anyway. But in the real world this would be dead and trapped capital it doesn't work for you and you cant even use it to quickly buy something an take advantage of a market situation.

The only reason why someone would look up capital like that if is it makes money. So people who use someone else locked up bitcoins have to pay. This makes LN impossible to be cheap. You literally lend money to send money to someone. Its complete absurd. And as you said to make this more efficient large centralized pools are created so there will be a monopoly or oligopoly for lending, hows that gonna be good for the fees.

LN was dead before they started coding it.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by wickoff on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @06:01PM (#27597776)
If I decide I want to be long BTC, why not also lock it up to earn fees?
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @10:06PM (#27599958)
No one questions that the people who are bullish on BTC are in on it (some). The question is why would I pay you to lend me BTC when I actually want to send my BTC to someone. It literally adds a third party in what should be a p2p transaction. They replaced the "evil third parties" called banks with their own liquidity pool.

Funny how they figured out that you cant make money with money services if you remove the third party, so they added it back in.

On top of that there are countless other blockchains/DLT that have cheap transactions on the first layer. Cheap as in fractions of a cent. To compete with that you would need to lock your BTC for free but then you still have the on chain transaction that LN needs sometimes that cost way too much.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by delaaxe on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @06:58PM (#27598397)
lock up*
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by uncletammy on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:06PM (#27597221)
In order to get money on and off lightning network, you still need to make on-chain BTC transactions. Meanwhile, the BTC devs have intentionally changed the network so that it's expensive to make on-chain transactions. From this you can probably figure out why lightning network failed.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by RazTeve on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:52PM (#27596347)
its maturing, works pretty well already, but surely patience helps with emergent tech
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by lottin on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:35PM (#27595388)
Apparently it has serious design flaws that compromise its security and performance.