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Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by wyager on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:14PM (#27595119)
> There is exactly zero progress to make it scale in the last 10+ years.

Lol, literally this week: https://taproot.watch/

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:17PM (#27595161)
Taproot doesn't make bitcoin scale its mainly to increase privacy.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by wyager on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:26PM (#27595283)
Taproot decreases the size of multisig and other complex transactions significantly, in the happy path of a cooperative signature.

It also enables Schnorr, which produces smaller signatures than ECDSA.

It also contains features to further improve the efficiency of Lightning, which is a shockingly effective scaling mechanism.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by simias on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:39PM (#27595435)
Lightning doesn't work because it either leads to a chaos of routing that doesn't scale or it ends up centralized and you lose the point of bitcoin in the first step.

And don't bother coming up with hand wavy explanations of how it could work, some day. People have been talking about Lightning for years, literally billions of dollars have been poured into the "tech", the fact that even bitcoin enthusiasts barely ever use it is all the proof I need.

I wonder how many more years of empty promises we'll have to suffer through before people accept that cryptocurrencies are a very good pyramid scheme with a thick layer of technobabble around it.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by plebianRube on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:02PM (#27595723)
Weird Lightning works perfect for me, every time I use it. Low fees instant transactions. Maybe the trouble is in your trolling?
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by wyager on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:17PM (#27597331)
Your entire premise is based on nonsense. People use lightning all the time and it works great.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by RazTeve on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:50PM (#27596320)
lightning works, at least you are having fun tho
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:06PM (#27595776)
Daily reminder that cryptocurrencies are not == bitcoin

All the problems with bitcoin are long long solved just not with bitcoin because its not possible to fix something when the majority (of hashpower) thinks its not broken or rather profit form its brokenness.

FBA coins exists since 2013 or so.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by Permit on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @06:03PM (#27597802)
> Daily reminder that cryptocurrencies are not == bitcoin

This is an interesting feature of cryptocurrencies. Someone levels a fair criticism of a particular implementation but it can be handwaved away because an entirely separate cryptocurrency solved this particular problem (nevermind that whatever replacement you’ve chosen has its own host of separate problems because those can be handwaved away the same way).

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @09:45PM (#27599806)
I did not hand wave anything away, maybe read the thread. There was a wrong generalization (cryptocurrencies == bitcoin) about cryptocurrencies that is very common but not accurate at all. Fair criticism on the Ford Model T does not apply to cars.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by Karsteski on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @08:14PM (#27599114)
Handwaved away? You mean improved?
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by wyager on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:21PM (#27597378)
FBA is centralized. Period. There’s a reason ripple hasn’t dominated the secure payments industry.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:41PM (#27597582)
faceplam FBA is a technology its not a thing or a running system. It can not be centralized its just bunch of math that BTW is mathematically proven to work. There are many FBA based "blockchains" out there some centralized some not. Ripple is a company that uses such a FBA system.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by normac2 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:33PM (#27596124)
Would you include environmental impact as a solved problem? My understanding is that Proof of Stake is the best serious option and that it's very controversial if it'll work.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by wyager on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:18PM (#27597349)
Proof of stake lacks the security properties of proof of work, e.g. via grinding attacks.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by AlexCoventry on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @10:50PM (#27600251)
Grinding attacks aren't a problem if you include secure verifiable randomness in the protocol. E.g., Algorand's VRF-based sortition, or Ethereum 2.0's verifiable delay function.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:32PM (#27596819)
Solves as in it does not use more energy than what the hardware needs to process the data + it doubles every time you double the number of nodes (obviously since they all have to do the same work too) Its not wasting energy for a PoW lottery it just uses energy like a comparable instant messenger with global server farm would. The more people who use it the more energy it will use there is no way around that.

FBA is completely different form PoS. It does not work on incentives and penalties it works with a global final state, global rules and (federated) byzantine agreement (FBA) for progress (adding the next "block"). No way to re-org, no block/staking reward, no censorship. If someone doesn't act in everyone's interest other nodes simply wont listen to them anymore. Not following the rules its publicly visible for anyone. And since there is no reward anyway there is no financial reason why anyone would participate who does not simply want to help the system.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by nednar on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:01PM (#27595713)
Well, the "pyramid scheme" + "technobabble" is not totally worthless, if it enables the investment of "literally billions of dollars" in otherwise totally unproven technology paths, doesn't it? Finally there is one area where people are really investing money into computer science! A cause to celebrate in my book.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by prox on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:09PM (#27596538)
cough dotcom bubble.

Seriously, investing money in a bubble is nothing to celebrate. That’s why it is called a bubble. It pops and many people loose their money.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by codebolt on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:46AM (#27601163)
Except this bubble is a bit more insidious because you have actors like Tether that are most likely creating a lot of artificial liquidity/demand. If there is a sudden loss of faith and enough actors start rushing for the exits, it will look something more like a musical game of chairs of who is left holding the bag of worthless Mickey Mouse dollars, by my estimation.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by prox on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:39AM (#27602574)
Absolutely, that is my biggest worry. And it has no true backing, apart from these pump and dumps.

The single question people in favor of crypto can’t answer is the value creation. Now crypto is a natural evolution of certain monetary services and techniques, but at the core it literally does nothing of value. In fact, one might argue that that is its prime feature in its current state.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:02PM (#27595730)
Who cares, the size could be 10 times smaller and it would not make a dent in the scalability problem. Its a few transaction per second at max and it would need to be be several hundred just so people could move their "owned" bitcoins away from exchange wallets without loosing several % in fees.

LN is not part of bitcoin and a total joke anyway.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by uncletammy on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:22PM (#27597396)
Oh good, BTC can finally support Schnorr signatures, a feature that been available on BCH for years now. A feature that is useless until wallet developers add Schnorr signing functionality.

Taproot is the update we get after ten years of the BTC devs doing nothing except gaslighting users about the protocol's scalability? All that momentum wasted.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by ric2b on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:55PM (#27597711)
> Schnorr signatures, a feature that been available on BCH for years now.

Not in a useful way: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/l8v8sa/heres_a_6of9_sc...

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by lawn on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:58PM (#27595670)
Segwit was also supposed to scale Bitcoin, and it turns out it was a massively inefficient solution, which took years to even reach it's lackluster potential.

Taproot will in practice have an even smaller impact, as it only affects special transactions that normal people won't use.

So yeah, it's not zero progress, but it's certainly not much.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by doomroot on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:41PM (#27596217)
Segwit itself provided an effective 2x increase in onchain transaction capacity and it fixed transaction malleability which was necessary for lightning network. Lightning network has 50,000+ open channels where payments can be routed without going onchain. Given the lightning network’s strict requirements to keep a node online & responsive, less you lose all your funds, I think that’s extremely impressive and shows a real demand for fast cheap payments.

Now, in November taproot/schnor activates which gives us ptlc’s on the lightning network as well as makes a lightning channel opening transaction look like a normal single signature transaction, yay privacy. All of this lays the groundwork for the next major base layer change, in probably ~2023, anyprevout. This will give us “eltoo” on lightning which is nirvana. Eltoo removes the penalty mechanism which makes running a lightning node on a mobile phone or home node much more reasonable.

Protocols take a long time to develop, especially ones where a miss-step could mean the loss of billions of dollars.

Do not believe anyone telling you that their coin solved bitcoin’s scaling problems years ago.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:13PM (#27596590)
Bitcoins scaling problem was solved by removing PoW/PoS and by removing the incentive structure (block rewards). As soon as this is gone there was no reason anymore why it would not scale like similar systems. Its basically limited only by how fast data can propagate trough the network.

PoW/PoS was replaced by FBA (Federated Byzantine Agreement) Its not a coin its technology used by several systems and based on BFT (which is way older than bitcoin and bitcoin actually is based on BFT as well although maybe unintentional).

FBA just adds the federated part so a decentral system can be build. While bitcoin instead used a work-reward lottery system (PoW) to decide who can write the next block rather than finding a block everyone agrees on. Its really not that hard to figure out which of these solutions probably works better and scales somewhat like a distributes system is expected to scale.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by itsdsmurrell on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:21AM (#27602126)
Bitcoin Cash has taken the approach that Bitcoin should have. On chain scaling.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by coding123 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:37PM (#27596170)
Bitcoin doesn't scale.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Just watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDKntG4F0hg

So in about 5 years pretend everyone in the United States melts a wrench like that... Then a month later they do that twice, a month later they do it three times.

Hey, at least it will be fun.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by Shosty123 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:19PM (#27596677)
Why does every discussion about Bitcoin's environmental impact reduce to "it uses a lot of electricity therefore it should be stopped".

We're not going to shut down entire sectors of the economy because of their environmental impact. People are going to innovate and invest in alternative sources of energy because it is becoming profitable to do so. The solution is hardly ever "just stop doing it", it's "how can we do this better".

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by codebolt on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:55AM (#27601226)
Crypto is hardly a "sector of the economy". It's main utility right now is lining the pockets of a few speculators.

Traditional centralized ledgering systems do everything crypto does better and with a fraction of the energy use. It also gives governments tools to combat inflation/deflation and manage counterparty risks within the system.

Crypto is a neat idea, but in the end it doesn't really solve anything, and instead only introduces a lot of unnecessary problems.

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by Shosty123 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:00AM (#27601999)
It pains me to see how someone could see no value in having a medium of exchange outside of any government currency control. One of my ex-coworkers had his family's fortune wiped out twice in Argentina due to government seizure and hyperinflation before they fled to Canada.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by tsimionescu on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:58AM (#27601242)
There are few sectors of the economy whose entire model depends fundamentally on huge energy consumption: Bitcoin's Proof of Work depends entirely on wasting huge amounts of electricity as assurance that transactions are verified. If mining became more power efficient, the algorithm would be changed to bring it back to where it is today.
Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by noxer on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:37PM (#27596868)
It has been "done better" in 2013 or so when the first FBA system where created as an direct answer to bitcoins expected future environmental impact and scalability problems.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27596590

Re:A from-scratch tour of Bitcoin in Python by MrLeap on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:07PM (#27597225)
Instead of watching that video, perhaps watch it on photonic induction's channel, seeing as he's the creator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJOX0c60wQE