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Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by underwater on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:18AM (#27567324)
Feels like a list of stuff where he massively underestimates the complexity of the fields he's talking about.

Drag and drop UIs have, as he indentified, been tried. They were a leaky abstraction where incremental functionality was difficult to implement.

Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by TimTheTinker on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:24AM (#27567353)
I think he means things like XCode's Interface Builder.

He's not massively underestimating the complexity as much as saying that huge swaths of that complexity are unnecessary, were it not for business requirements that often require us to do things the cheapest way possible (like hiring "fungible" web engineers to build an electron app instead of paying native platform engineers to build a first-class native app) -- and thus cause long-term harm.

Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by whatshisface on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:58AM (#27567527)
I have lightly used both web UI stuff and native UI stuff, and on the desktop at least, web UI concepts are lightyears ahead. I think native UI development for PCs will return when and if the concepts there catch up with the present state of the abstractions and patterns that work for web dev. GTK, the one I know the best, is still in an era where object orientation is a new and technically difficult thing to achieve. Not bad at all, but we can do things so much more advanced than that if we port over the lessons learned when inventing ways to manipulate and efficiently push updates to the document object model.

There are some projects working on this but they are not yet at the level of "copy paste works," or "you can use either a retina or non-retina display and it won't look badly scaled or blurry on either." But I hope this will be sorted out soon because there is a lot of software I want to write with it.

Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by pjc50 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:50AM (#27567487)
No, Visual Basic worked fine. People built an entire generation of native business apps in it. Drop a bunch of labels, buttons and textboxes, wire the list view up to the database, and away you go.

The hard problem is native vs. cross platform.

Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by bigiain on Sunday June 20, 2021 @02:10AM (#27567582)
So the answer is _Electron?_

I think way to many people massively underestimate the complexity they add to a problem when their solution involves Electron, React, and npm…

I’m less convinced than most commenters here that he’s underestimating the difficulty of some of what he proposes, he ends with:

“ The reality is they’re all quite possible, but nobody makes money doing them. Engineers are a defeated tribe; it’s cheaper to hire an “AI” (Alien or Immigrant) slave to write the terraform or electron front end rather than paying clever engineers well enough to build themselves useful tooling to make them more productive and the world a better place. ”

Amidst his snark (which I’ll acknowledge will put some readers off) and some borderline probable racist dog whistling (which certainly put me off a bit), he is totally acknowledging that these ideas require smart engineers with budgets and mandates to spend the time making them come true. He’s not suggesting the 12 week boot camp front end engineers should be parsing c header files and inspecting deeper I to he c code to discover the stuff you need to use those to auto generate interfaces for other languages. But surely some of the senior AWS engineers should be spending their time investigation his ideas about ec2 and cloud and OSes?

Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by jacobsenscott on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:57AM (#27567519)
I've never seen a web UI that couldn't be built, and built better, in an hour with an old school drag and drop gui builder. Unfortunately the web was built on markup, and markup is a terrible way to define a UI. There is really no way to make a good gui builder for html/css, so we are stuck with literally the worst possible way to build UIs today. CSS is 24 years old, and nobody has figured out a sane way to use it yet. We've gone from inline styles to "semantic" to BEM, and we've come full circle to what are basically inline styles (tailwind) and they all suck. Even html frames and tables were better than what we are using today. In many ways the history of building UIs in HTML is just people trying to find ways to mimic a frames/tables layout without using frames and tables.
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by ironmagma on Sunday June 20, 2021 @02:07AM (#27567569)
There are a ton of effective drag and drop GUI builders for HTML/CSS: Webflow, Squarespace, Wix, and Plasmic to name a few, and that's just the current generation (see also: Dreamweaver et al.).

> Even html frames and tables were better than what we are using today

How? CSS and HTML can do practically everything frames could do (the only thing I can think of that doesn't apply is independent histories). There are a lot of different technologies at your disposal -- grid, which is probably the most intuitive; flex box; or just `position: fixed` divs.

Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by Aeolun on Sunday June 20, 2021 @02:47AM (#27567751)
Are those building a GUI? Or just a website? As far as I know they’re mostly about markup.
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by ironmagma on Sunday June 20, 2021 @03:06AM (#27567839)
That's a strange distinction to make. Websites are a type of GUIs. You can build some pretty complicated things without JavaScript, but if you need JS, then yes, most of them support it in some form or another, Plasmic probably being the most sophisticated.
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by hulitu on Sunday June 20, 2021 @03:48AM (#27568014)
Calling websites GUI is a bit streched. A phone can be called a computer but the computations it does are limited to data collecting. Websites also could have good UI (even GUI) but most are limited to (again) data collection and the UI is the same like the one between Ice age humans and first domesticated animals.
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by ironmagma on Sunday June 20, 2021 @05:17AM (#27568413)
I think you're overcomplicating this; the meaning of these words is in the acronyms themselves. What's a UI? A user interface -- any layer that goes between the user and some machine. What's a GUI? A user interface that is graphical, or: a layer that uses graphics to go between the user and a machine. Since websites use graphics (pixels, on a screen), and they sit between the user and a computer, they are GUIs.
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by smsm42 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @03:28AM (#27567929)
The whole HTML-ization of GUIs is crazy... It's like "ok, let's make a language that represents semantics of documents and leaves most of the presentation to the tools, so we could concentrate on content and not focus too much on irrelevant details of presentation" - "ok, cool idea, now let's take this language and use it to build pixel-precision GUIs that have no semantic content at all". Ugh, talk about right too for the job!
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by la_fayette on Sunday June 20, 2021 @02:07AM (#27567570)
Is a gui tool really faster or better then directly writing the code? It is like using a cli vs using a gui... propably a hybrid approach would be best...
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by drewcoo on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:42AM (#27567449)
"The reality is they’re all quite possible, but nobody makes money doing them."

The fact that he thinks they would take money implies that he believes they would be complex. Simple problems shouldn't cost much to fix.

Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by carapace on Sunday June 20, 2021 @02:11AM (#27567585)
Re:Obvious and possible software innovations by Zviedris on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:26AM (#27567362)
Yeah, like could start list with just solve PvPN problem :)