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Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by joe_the_user on Saturday June 12, 2021 @03:17PM (#27486797)
It seems like this can leave the reader with the wrong impression. Calculus really is "the mathematics of Newtonian physics". This is just "some mathematics that might help a bit in your intuitions of deep learning".

IE, Deep learning is fundamentally just about getting the mathematically simple but complex and multi-layerd "neural networks" to do stuff. Training them, testing them and deploying them. There are many intuitions about these things but there's no complete theory - some intuitions involve mathematical analogies and simplifications while other involve "folk knowledge" or large scale experiments. And that's not saying folks giving math about deep learning aren't proving real things. It's just they characterizing the whole or even a substantial part of such systems.

It's not surprising that a complex like a many-layered Relu network can't fully characterized or solved mathematically. You'd expect that of any arbitrarily complex algorithmic construct. Differential equations of many variables and arbitrary functions also can't have their solutions fully characterized.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by fogof on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:07PM (#27487804)
As a PhD student who sort of burned out on this type of research, I agree that the complexity of Neural Networks as a mathematical construct makes them very difficult to analyze. This might also have to do with Deep learning theory being a subset of learning theory which is subject to "No Free Lunch" [1], which means that you always have to be very careful not to try to prove something that turns out to be impossible.

That being said, research on the Kernel regime is one of the very cool ideas, in my opinion, to gain traction in this field in the past few years. To summarize: "If you make a neural network wide enough, it gains the power to control its output on each individual input separately, and will begin to fit its training data perfectly". Of course, the real pleasure is in understanding all the mathematical details of this statement!

[1] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_theorem

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by joe_the_user on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:41PM (#27488002)
I got my master's years ago so now I'm a strict amateur. That said, I don't think the "No free lunch theorem" is very "interesting". It's nearly tautological that no approximation method works for "any" function. The set of predictable/interesting/useful/"real-world" functions is going to have measure 0 compared to white noise so "any function" will basically look like white noise and can't be predicted. Approximating functions/sequences with vanishingly low Kolmogorov complexity is more interesting, impossible in general by Godel's theorem but what's the case "on average"? (depends on the choice process and so ill-defined but defining might be interesting). The kernel regime stuff looks interesting but I don't know it's relation to wide networks.

Neural networks "tend to generalize well in the real world". That's a pretty fuzzy statement imo since "real world" is hardly defined but it's still what people experience and it's more useful to provide a more precise model where this works rather than a model where this doesn't work.

Also, there's good theory on deep networks as universal well as theories of wide/shallow networks [1].

[1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1901.02220

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by roenxi on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:58PM (#27488133)
> Neural networks "tend to generalize well in the real world".

I've always interpreted that as "we've found an algorithm that could, given a foreseeable amount of computing power and maybe some tweaks, simulate human decision making".

It isn't so much that neural networks can approximate the real world as they can approximate human perception of the real world.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by joe_the_user on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:17PM (#27488260)
Well, I quote the statement to show how vague it is, among things.

Neural networks are "universal approximators" in that they work as well as virtually any previous approximation method. So given big snapshot of input data and human judgement on it, they can approximate that. They can also approximate a snapshot of some input-output pairs not produced by human but having patterns (solutions to differential equations, for example).

So, they can approximate what humans do in a given domain. But there's no reason to think they're acting in the same way as humans and I'd say very few people seriously working on ML believe that.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by make3 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:33PM (#27489026)
This intuition is very dangerous and leads to huge misconceptions about deep neural nets.

Neural nets don't learn anything like us, and they don't reproduce our functions. We build on massive amounts of general symbolic knowledge, and can zero shot tasks (without explicit examples) easily.

Neural networks really should be seen as just giant random functions that you progressively modify in tiny ways until they fit your data. As parent says, we've just been lucky or good at constraining these functions in a way that they can only learn useful functions (ie convnets) or that they somehow learn these more quickly

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by roenxi on Saturday June 12, 2021 @10:21PM (#27489236)
Humans certainly do not build on massive amounts of symbolic knowledge because we are absolutely terrible at symbolic knowledge. Reliably reasoning through a basic logical argument is a specialist skill. Even reviewing evidence before making decisions is uncommon, most humans operate on a look -> assess -> do model where the tricky bit is well approximated by a neural net. Which is why neural nets seem to be so good at real-world tasks.

It is completely plausible that when neural nets get scaled up to something approaching human-brain numbers of connections they will well approximate a human brain or be a few tweaks away. Obviously it won't be knowable until state of the art gets there, but there is no reason to think human intelligence is going to be complicated. It is one evolutionary step up from some pretty basic animals.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by alecst on Saturday June 12, 2021 @10:46PM (#27489339)
Maybe you’re talking about a different kind of symbolic knowledge than the OP. To give an example humans can instantly tell whether an arbitrary sentence is grammatical or not which is a deep kind of symbolic reasoning that computers absolutely cannot do right now. And humans can also get the semantic meaning.

Then again math is hard for us. So I think there are nuances.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by roenxi on Saturday June 12, 2021 @11:21PM (#27489470)
The fact that computers can't do sentence grammar and meaning right now doesn't tell us anything much about similarities or differences between humans and neural nets. It just tells us that training a neural net purely on a big corpus isn't enough to derive semantic meaning and makes it hard to work out grammatical meaning. No human has ever tried to do that either, everyone comes at text with some real-world experience. So we don't know how well they would do at it. Probably terribly.

It is reasonable to believe that written language is easier to train on a neural net that is trained on both images and words so it can form visual links between words. Maybe that takes more computational grunt than we have at the moment. The failure so far proves nothing.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by make3 on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:32PM (#27498992)
the argument was about wether humans and neural nets learn in a similar way. I don't see how what you are saying has any impact on that
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by p1esk on Saturday June 12, 2021 @11:56PM (#27489621)
instantly tell whether an arbitrary sentence is grammatical or not

You do realize we can train a neural network to perform this task? It is a binary classification problem. When I look at a grammatically incorrect sentence I don't do much symbolic reasoning - it just feels "wrong" to me. It does not match any patterns I have in my head for grammatically correct sentences. There's a lot of pattern matching in our thinking process.

What's missing in the current generation of neural networks is efficient information storage and ability to recall that information (e.g. lookup) or update it (direct write).

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by make3 on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:41PM (#27499049)
"You do realize we can train a neural network to perform this task"

I'm doing a master's in deep learning for NLP and I'm not sure we can. Language modelling can't do this because grammatical yet semantically implausible combinations of words yield very low perplexity, like the classic being Noam Chomsky's "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously".

What would be a training set for this? I assume we would first try to do parsing to extract the grammatical role of each word. Then what would be the dataset? A massive attempt at generating the set of all possible trees that are grammatical?

I guess we could use massive textual datasets from reputable sources and extract their grammatical role tree, and learn from that. Generating negative examples with sufficient coverage would be very hard. Strict generative modelling without negative examples with good coverage would see the same problem as with language modelling, where acceptable but unlikely examples would have low perplexity despite being good.

It would seem to me that in order to generate negative examples with good coverage, your would need to have a man made program with a definition of what grammaticality means, which would make making a neural network useless to begin with.

Seems like the experts agree with my take: https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/1108

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by p1esk on Monday June 14, 2021 @12:44AM (#27499380)
Constructing a training dataset is a separate problem. You could potentially crowdsource enough negative examples. Once you have the dataset, a neural network would most likely be able to learn to classify sentences with a reasonably good accuracy.

Unlike current DL models, humans have a world model (common sense) which is formed through an ability to create/update/lookup explicit rules/facts. Once we figure out how to incorporate that into a learning algorithm and/or a model architecture, AI will become a lot smarter.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by alecst on Monday June 14, 2021 @03:41PM (#27507287)
If we can train a computer to classify sentences as grammatical or not please let me know where. You’ll save the linguistics department a lot of money as they’ll no longer have to contact native speakers for this research.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by xapata on Sunday June 13, 2021 @12:45PM (#27494065)
Humans require fewer examples to learn language rules. It's not clear that humans use the same learning model a "deep net."
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by p1esk on Sunday June 13, 2021 @01:24PM (#27494366)
Humans also require a lot of examples to learn a language - years of everyday practice for a young human. Learning algorithms are not the same, but you still need to train a large neural network - lots of neurons with lots of connections (weights) - whether it's in your head or in a datacenter.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by alecst on Monday June 14, 2021 @03:46PM (#27507360)
There’s some evidence that humans have a Universal Grammar and learn through deletion. And humans can not learn any old language — only a restricted class — meanwhile there’s no reason to think that an ML model would have that problem.

I’d encourage you to read a little more about the topic with an open mind. You might learn something.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by MillenialMan on Sunday June 13, 2021 @05:23AM (#27491090)
Neural nets fundamentally cannot operate the same way a brain does, because they cannot create an abstract representation of a problem, and then gradually and deliberately manipulate that mental model until they develop a solution. They just don't work that way, with current structures. They basically apply a single pass of a very complex function to the data, and spit out a result.

That isn't a problem of scale, it's a problem of architecture. This is one of the reasons Deepmind decided to tackle Starcraft. It's very difficult to solve Starcraft without your AI having some ability to develop and then manipulate a mental model of the game, because that's what you need to construct and unfold original, non-linear strategies.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by MillenialMan on Sunday June 13, 2021 @05:13AM (#27491035)
Neural nets generalise because they have to approximate the data at a lower resolution, it's not that they're constrained to only learn what is useful. They're lossy compressors, but they have a unique property that most lossy compressors don't have. They cannot learn all the properties of the input data - partly because they can't hold that much information - but uniquely because neurons cannot be modified in isolation. A change in one neuron changes the influence of every other neuron in that layer, on the next layer. So it's difficult to learn granular properties of specific examples, because the entire net is affected when you do that (and many granular properties that are learned, will be unlearned in subsequent examples). The deeper the net, the less able earlier layers are to extract granular information from the input. They have to extract very abstract information, and they will gradually converge on an abstraction strategy that works.

That's why residual blocks are interesting. They pass that low-level information to later blocks (which have an easier time processing the granular details) while also leveraging the ability of earlier blocks to extract abstract information. It allows you to extract and combine information at multiple levels of granularity (or abstraction).

Convnets are also invariant to generalisation (e.g. translation, and to some degree scale), which I think is a better definition than "can only learn something useful." They're forced learn information that is more general, which increases the usefulness of each bit, which means you get a higher density of usefulness per FLOP. But you also lose specific information in that process. What if location is meaningful? For example, audio spectrogram analysis can suffer from that property, because specific location on the Y axis is highly meaningful.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by make3 on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:51PM (#27499124)
What I meant by "forced to learn something useful" is what you put in a more clear way by being forced to generalize.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by Cacti on Sunday June 13, 2021 @08:47AM (#27492125)
NFL theorems aren’t an argument about noise, they’re an argument about the uncountability of real numbers. NFL states that over all problems any optimization method performs equally poorly to any other, or equivalently, _that if an optimization method does well on some problems, it must do equally poorly on some other problems_, and those others aren’t necessarily noise, they could be anything. The problem is you don’t know which problems it is going to do poorly on in advance. You hope it does poorly on noise or on problems that you don’t care about, but you can’t tell. That is a very different statement than what you’re saying, and it’s as equally non-trivial as Godels and Turings statements in decidability.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by conformist on Saturday June 12, 2021 @04:12PM (#27487139)
It seems like it aims at giving somebody who would like to get started doing theoretical research in the field some pointers and basic insights. I don't think it does a particularly bad job at this, in particular given that it will be a book chapter? The target audience are probably people who have had some exposure to Functional Analysis and the likes before.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by jhrmnn on Saturday June 12, 2021 @04:45PM (#27487312)
There are a few works that try to put deep learning on some theoretical basis, I like this one, for example:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.00810

This goes beyond mere intuition, but it is also still very far from a “complete theory”.

I find it disappointing that so few people in deep learning work on the theoretical foundations.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by quibono on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:36PM (#27487613)
What are some subfields of mathematics that you would say are crucial for gaining a proper understanding of all the things related to deep learning (e.g. let's say the paper you linked)? Even though the theory isn't complete, I'm sure a grounding in certain fields of mathematics will be helpful.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by iNic on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:46PM (#27487678)
This is always difficult to answer, and it will probably be a mixture of many, however I am currently following categorical approaches to machine learning. Category Theory is the area of mathematics that studies composable structures, i.e. like layers in a deep network. It is very abstract and was invented to solve problem in algebraic geometry, but has been fruitful in other areas as well.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by joe_the_user on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:35PM (#27488379)
That you this illustrates that the situation today is "take whatever math-stuff you have, throw it against neural networks and see what you get". IE, I'm pretty sure not much progress has been made with category theory and neural networks - but you might be the first.

I've seen differential equations, Markov chains, differential geometry and other stuff. We might be in heady days before the "big breakthrough" is made. But these constructs might be inherently pathological (even then, non-pathological variants might be possible).

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by aborsy on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:56PM (#27489123)
It’s good for paper publication, and for public sector. Take an obscure area of math and throw it against latest trend.

It’s a question if it’s useful.

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by SubiculumCode on Saturday June 12, 2021 @10:14PM (#27489203)
It can be useful for innovation in the aggregate.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by convexity123 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:34PM (#27487968)
Could you give some favourite references, some use of category theory in ML which gives good results compared to standard approaches?

Is there a group doing this in Zurich?

Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by 317070 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:50PM (#27487709)
Dynamical systems and chaos theory (especially for neural networks), information theory (especially for the paper linked), probability theory (especially the more foundational and axiomatic work)
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by fithisux on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:24AM (#27493352)
You can start from this. https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.04929
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by 0-_-0 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:43PM (#27487660)
Of the many "understanding neural networks" papers this is one of the few valuable ones.
Re:The Modern Mathematics of Deep Learning by keithalewis on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:36PM (#27487977)
Agreed. Until we get to the point where there are theorems of the form, for example, "Given a problem satisfying conditions X, the optimal number of layers to minimize expected training time for data satisfying Y is Z", it is just stamp collecting.