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Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by tovej on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:09AM (#27482950)
US upward social mobility is among the worst in the world. US workers are stuck in a rat race that simply doesn't exist to the same extent in Europe.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:11AM (#27482964)
I beg to differ. The fact is hard working immigrants in the US have a much higher chance of becoming successful than in Europe.

Pretty much all the US tech companies are now run by immigrants of minority backgrounds while, for example, Eastern European and Turkish immigrants in Germany are still regarded as cleaners and kebab salesmen, with the only notable exception they can name being the Turkish CEO of BionTech.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:49AM (#27483146)
I'd argue if you say "the fact is", you should provide a source for that.

So low-paying jobs in the service sector are not an immigrant thing in the US? Did you talk to enough Europeans to know we can only name the BionTech guy as an example of a successful immigrant?

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:59AM (#27483200)
>Did you talk to enough Europeans to know we can only name the BionTech guy as an example of a successful immigrant?

Please name some for me. Especially in Germany.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by retromario on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:44AM (#27483474)
https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/31872/people-with-migra...

A few examples as well as general recent trends but also the challenges immigrant founders are facing.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by mustafa_pasi on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:58AM (#27483853)
Launching a startup is not the same as successfully navigating the local economy and being successful. You can launch a startup by signing some papers and maybe getting some very small grant from the EU or the local government. But good luck getting VCs interested or getting other businesses as customers/clients.

The article actually says this:

> Glaring funding gaps: A lack of access to capital -- government support, business angels and venture capital -- particularly plague first-generation migrant founders, who received €1.1 million on average, compared to €2.6 million of all startups.

> Below-average cooperation: While the average startup cooperates with seven established businesses, first-generation migrant founders only have two such firm ties. What's more, they work together with scientific institutions less often. Within the startup ecosystem, however, cooperation is well-established across the board.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:14AM (#27483299)
I am one European. You would have to talk to a lot of Europeans to make the claim you made.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:21AM (#27483345)
The fact that you can't name any just proves my point. Thank you.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:44AM (#27483472)
Your logic is flawed. That happens when following some ideology.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:10AM (#27484238)
It may be flawed but at least I provide arguments for my logic while you just spam this thread with "Europe good because social system, USA bad because corporations"
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @01:36PM (#27486052)
Yeah, however, what you should provide is evidence, not arguments. With "logic", anything can explained, if your logic is just skewed enough.

My evidence? Reality.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by Applejinx on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:00AM (#27483555)
If the 'higher chance' we're talking about is the chance of becoming CEO of a tech unicorn, established by the fact that there are CEOs of tech unicorns, is this not entirely a moot and meaningless point?

Effectively the difference between a chance of 0.0000001% and 0.0% is not important…

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by varjag on Saturday June 12, 2021 @05:43AM (#27483121)
Even the top tier of decision making political class in the USA has many immigrants. In Europe it's still largely token presence faces in auxiliary positions.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:15AM (#27483302)
Yeah the Trump government was really really diverse, and so are the boards of the large companies.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by varjag on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:48AM (#27483495)
Sebastian Gorka is an immigrant, from the EU no less. So are the many notorious alt-right figures that are baked in your consciousness as ur-American.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:02AM (#27483564)
Ok yeah the Nazis building your moon rockets were also immigrants, true ;-)
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by varjag on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:10AM (#27483612)
I'm an Eastern European immigrant in Norway, stuff your attitude where it makes you warm.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:32AM (#27483722)
I don't follow ... what does that have to do with Nazis being a part of or employed by the US government?

And I stand by my point that the big companies that the article is about don't have too much diversity on the higher levels.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by varjag on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:35AM (#27483742)
Of course you don't follow, because what you wrote was a non sequitur.
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:56AM (#27483850)
Yeah I also sometimes have those bad days where I just wanna insult people without even telling them exactly why ...
Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by varjag on Saturday June 12, 2021 @08:02AM (#27483869)
It was you who brought Trump and then to top it off bloody Nazis with a personal slant.

Here is a brilliant idea for you, don't try to jab complete strangers you know nothing about, keep the debate to subject matter. Then you'll skip the whole hoopla of trying to arguing yourself out from uncomfortable corner you paint yourself into.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by j_wtf_all_taken on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:00AM (#27484163)
You talked about decision makers, didn't you? Was Trump not a decision maker?

So I'm still not following, you really gotta give more context.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:28AM (#27483379)
> US upward social mobility is among the worst in the world

This is incorrect. American social mobility is low. But not widely so, and certainly not consistently lowest among rich countries. (It is consistently among the lowest.)

If one takes "the extent to which son’s [sic] earnings levels reflect those of their fathers," Britain and Italy are worse than America while France is quite close [1]. Similarly, "after adjusting for the country-specific distribution of socio-economic status, the United States, France and Belgium are countries where parental background has the greatest influence on student achievement."

[1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.411... Figure 2, page 9

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by tovej on Saturday June 12, 2021 @08:06AM (#27483881)
So US social mobility is only slightly better (insignificantly) than the two worst countries in Europe. I think that article rather supports my claim. Italy is also rather a troublesome example, because northern and southern Italy are vastly different. Regional differences account for much of the inequality and the persistence of it there.

Looking at the mean in Europe vs the US there is no contest. Other metrics in the same paper indicate that for factors that impact long term social stability, like schooling, the US is the worst.

It's possible that, since the US is such a big territory, regional differences are distorted. But I couldn't find a better source myself, with a quick search.

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 12, 2021 @08:29AM (#27483981)
> US social mobility is only slightly better (insignificantly) than the two worst countries in Europe. I think that article rather supports my claim.

Compared with the cohort of European countries, America fairs poorly (though not excessively so).

The original claim, however, was that it fares "among the worst in the world." This is incorrect; it's roughly middle of the pack [1][2].

On the measure of the "number of generations it would take...those born to...the bottom 10% of the income distribution...to approach the mean in their society," America ties with Ireland, Portugal, Italy, the U.K., Italy, Austria and Switzerland. It is ahead of France, Germany and Hungary. In summary, America is good at allowing the poor to become middle class. It is less good at letting the middle class become exorbitantly rich, though not terribly so.

[1] https://www.oecd.org/social/broken-elevator-how-to-promote-s...

[2] https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/1-5%20generations.png

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by pedrosorio on Sunday June 13, 2021 @04:14PM (#27495956)
> In summary, America is good at allowing the poor to become middle class. It is less good at letting the middle class become exorbitantly rich, though not terribly so.

The common view is the opposite though: higher tax rates and lower entrepreneurship in Europe are assumed to put a damper on the middle class from amassing significant wealth. On the other hand, the US has significantly more billionaires per capita than most countries in Europe [1], and many of those are "self-made" (i.e. not generational wealth). What am I missing here?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...

Re:Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its fo... by tovej on Saturday June 12, 2021 @12:43PM (#27485608)
"Among the worst" is a bad qualifier, I'll admit. Not least because it is vague. However, the US is still worse than Europe when it comes to social mobility.

Going back to the original argument that something in the US's tax policy or job markets makes the US perform better when it comes to upwards social mobility, I think we can definitely debunk that.