My father did metalwork before moving to an office job in the civil service. He was the son of a die pressman. Who was the son of a blacksmith. Dad taught me how to weld and cut and so on before my teens. My intellectual interests went to math and computers early on, and he did encourage me to go wherever that might lead. Yet after university and exploring the world I end up in a job where I make circuit boards. It's nearly all automated now but I still do far more welding in my job than most people with a degree.

Sometimes it feels like our life scripts are often sketched out by circumstance and trends long before we're even born.

He is really proud of buildings he was working on and that he was able to build things with his own hands.

Even though I have an engineering degree and work in totally different environment I think that something I took from him is that I am really happy with the systems I have built and ability to create things on my own.

I did it with keyboard while he did it with hammer.

So I don't think it is "cartels" it is still a lot of what you experience in your childhood. If your parent is a dentist he will talk about that and you won't have problem to understand things in that area, maybe you will visit his practice and be able to play with the tools even. Well it still is some kind of upper-hand but not every child can have the same exposure to dentistry and I am fine with that.

Now and again I'll see a very expensive thing I worked on on eBay for a penny on the dollar. Maybe it's time to build a Museum of Me in a spare bedroom.

Of course I also sit in a cluster, knowing several other kids who also did not want to become restaurant workers. It was simple really, our parents would say "I'm serving fried rice to people so that you won't have to." None of my family friends have taken over the family business. It's nearly an insult to suggest it, I remember seeing an article about my friend's dad having his anniversary at one of Copenhagens most beloved Chinese grillbars. The FB comment section made it clear she had no intention of taking that over, his hard work had resulted in a cushy white collar job for her and she was thankful for that.

Oddly my wife, a doctor's kid, also got put off being a doctor by her dad. He had long become cynical about working in the NHS and let his kids know when they got to the age where you think about this.

My father and my father's father were both anesthesiologists. I'm a software developer with a degree in mechanical engineering.

Growing up, I saw a lot of my dad's frustration butting his head against hospital and regulatory bureaucracy and decided to steer clear. (His biggest headaches came because it's not uncommon for one anesthesiologist to cover 3 simultaneous low-risk operations, circulating among the operating rooms while each surgery has a dedicated nurse anesthetist. There was one billing regulation that was ambiguous in a corner case for such simultaneous services, where one reading indicated that they weren't allowed to charge any fees at all in a corner case. His company inquired for clarification from the government regulator and got no response. Years after their inquiry, they got sued regarding corner-case billing of the government for services provided to low income patients. The legal discovery process found internal government memos where regulators joked with each other over my dad's company's inquiry about how it would be great to have zero-cost healthcare at the expense of physicians. The laws were later clarified to avoid the ambiguity to essentially match my dad's company's interpretation, but unfortunately, the lawsuit was over the laws at the time the billing was made. They were actually sued by a third party on behalf of the government, in exchange for a percentage of the money recovered for the government. Some of the key pieces of evidence were shown pre-trial to be "mistakes" where the other side had "accidentally" photocopied several bills twice and redacted the two copies of each bill slightly differently. There were some "anonymous whistleblower" faxes that were traced to an office service center across the street from the other party's offices (conveniently preventing the whistleblower from having to answer questions under oath), and all kinds of other obvious dishonest evidence submission. Most of the complaints were thrown out pre-trial, the rest they settled out of court rather than risk a jury trial pitting "rich doctors" against a government program for low income folks, over ambiguous wording. There were also anti-trust allegations made by defining a market as the area right around the hospital's where dad's company operated and conveniently ignoring some hospitals in-between those included hospitals. At least the anti-trust stuff was dropped pretty quickly, but the whole ordeal was a high-stress multi-year situation for my dad when I was in elementary school.)

Well, were they following the standard of American healthcare in price-gouging patients because it was technically legal to do so? Which would not necessarily be a strike against your dad, but simply an acknowledgement of the way health care costs are "managed" in this country.

They were charging MediCare, not patients, and they were charging MediCare according to the price schedule dictated by MediCare, which was significantly less than insurance companies paid. The problem was there were poorly worded rules for adjusting prices when one doctor was simultaneously treating multiple patients, particularly around how multiple discount factors should compound.

I don't remember the exact details from 30 years ago, but IIRC, it was something like under one interpretation of the rules, if a doctor were treating 2 private insurance patients and 1 MediCare patient simultaneously, then the MediCare discount factor was reasonable. However, if a doctor were treating 3 MediCare patients simultaneously, under one interpretation the discount factors compounded additively such that the doctor's fees went negative and the doctor was best off doing the 3rd case pro-bono. The real trouble came when a doctor was treating 1 patient with private insurance and 2 under MediCare, where the incorrect reading resulted in discount factors unreasonable compounding, but not to such a degree that it was so clearly an incorrect interpretation.

When MediCare didn't respond to their request for clarification, my dad's company went with the interpretation that gave sane results for 3 MediCare patients, and applied that same interpretation to the 2 MadiCare patient case. It would have been immoral and illegal for them to refuse to treat the patients, so they went forward in good faith with the most sensible interpretation. This despite (as discovery showed) MediCare officials acting in bad faith by intentionally not responding to their inquiry and privately joking about it. They presumably realized the correct interpretation resulted in higher fees, but avoided responding in hopes the lower fees would be charged.

Whichever bureaucrats had written the original billing rules were clearly aware that some doctors simultaneously treated multiple patients, but had clearly hadn't sat down and tried calculating a bill for one hypothetical situation for each of the possible corner cases.

The rules were later amended to be unambiguous. The lawsuit was filed a few years after the rules amendments, and all of the allegations of wrongdoing were for billing prior to the rules amendments. Everything they did was always clearly correct under the later rules. The only question was if the earlier and later rules were equivalent. My dad's company's assertion was that the earlier ambiguous rules should be interpreted as being equivalent to the later rules. The opposition's assertion was that the rules change wasn't in fact a clarification, but instead a meaningful change that allowed doctors to bill more.

The billing rules were so complex that in the late 1970s, my dad's company of 15-ish doctors hired some developers to spend months sitting down with the doctors coding up the billing rules. Even the mid 2000's they were making more on licensing the anesthesia billing software than they were on providing anesthesia services.

Don't go into medicine unless you really like helping people.

My dad studied hard enough to get very high MCAT scores and went to med school after 3 years of undergrad, so he never got an undergrad degree. (Med school was less competitive in the 1970s, and he didn't go to a top-tier med school, though he did well enough that he did his residency at the Mayo Clinic.) I'm pretty sure there were plenty of other things my dad could have done that would have been roughly as lucrative, but lower stress and left him with more time with family. I think part of it was that he felt a duty to carry on his father's career that was cut so short.

I saw my dad's paycheck one month in the mid 1980s. He made 10k/month, which was good money for the 80s (about 300k/yr in 2021 dollars), but he also had to pay malpractice insurance and med school loans out of that (Grandpa drowned when dad was 9 years old and Grandma had to go back to being a school teacher). He and many of his colleagues had stress-related acid reflux. Hospitals need anesthesia 24/7, so he was on a rolling shift work schedule. Sometimes I wouldn't see him for a week because he'd either have the evening shift and be out before I got home from school, or he'd be working the graveyard shift and wouldn't wake up until after my bedtime. Anesthesiologists have pretty high rates of suicide and drug abuse. You occasionally pull some genuine miracles out of your hat and save a doomed person, but you also carry with you forever the names of those you couldn't save.

It's not even a free market run amok. There's essentially zero price transparency, which is necessary for an efficiently operating free market.

Once you get into the union, it's kinda a cake walk. You can achieve a middle class income, health, and retirement.

It wasn't for me, but a lot of people like it.

(answering the top question. I never wanted to do what my father did. We had a strained relationship the minute I stopped agreeing with him. Even as a kid, I loved my father, but didn't want to be like him in any way--including career.)

Knowing people in the highly unionized film biz, getting your next job always seems to be the order of the day so it seems to depend. It actually sounds pretty tough compared to a 'normal' gig at a company, but you do end up with good stories to tell.

I honestly feel like a great way to educate kids is not to teach them anything directly at all, but to instead leave lots of material around for them to discover themselves.

I'd say that means the PHD job market has a large problem. When politicians are the ones you can compare yourself to look good, it's because things are not good at all.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41539-017-0005-6

[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8407707/

Behavioral genetics is fairly controversial for being an entire field which begs the question.

https://www.wichita.edu/academics/fairmount_college_of_liber...

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/my-problem-...

Your objection to the first is ad hominem, to the second erroneous.

Belief in genetic determinism, as we conceive it, is at odds with the principles of skepticism and scientific inquiry. Like eugenics before it, it really, really wants to find a scientific basis to justify the state of the world we live in even as that state shifts under us. There are massive holes in both the execution of studies and the underlying rationale, and it's impossible to speak in good faith on the topic without acknowledging that.

Conclusions do not require certainty. Science is about converging to the best explanation, not about unimpeachable conclusions. But when there are no plausible causal paths to explain measured correlations aside from, e.g., gene->phenotype causation, then causation along the available causal path is a valid tentative conclusion.

> variability in adult height, has similarly been held to be highly heritable... despite the fact that the average in many countries has changed on a time scale incompatible with a purely or even highly genetic basis.

I don't know how you can possibly think this supports your argument against genetic heritability. Height has a heritability measure of around 80%, which leaves 20% for environmental factors. There is no contradiction in noting that average height has increased over time when the current best analysis leaves significant room for variation due to environment.

>despite the fact that the average in many countries has changed on a time scale incompatible with a purely or even highly genetic basis.

Nothing you've said demonstrates this claim.

>Your objection to the first is ad hominem

Nope. Emergentism is his avowed conceptual framework, a lens through which he analyzes evidence and draws conclusions. But if the conceptual framework is vacuous, which it is, then that undermines the value of conclusions based on that framework.

If certainty has not been achieved, then you should remain skeptical. The lack of a causal explanation is a massive discontinuity in logic which suggests that our conclusions may be very wrong ("retrograde action" wrong).

>Height has a heritability measure of around 80%, which leaves 20% for environmental factors.

This is what I mean. The studies that determined this used datasets from wealthy Western countries that are more ethnically homogeneous than average. Similar studies done in less wealthy countries found measures of environmental influence as high as 40%. In countries of similar wealth, average height can be predicted by measuring the level of economic inequality, suggesting that environmental factors such as healthcare, nutrition, and fitness access are all significant inputs.

>Nothing you've said demonstrates this claim.

Dutch average height for men grew 8 inches in a century. For comparison, average height for men worldwide has grown around 3 inches in the last millennium. There is evidence to suggest that pre-agricultural male height was similar to where it is now, if not taller; the structure of our civilization is the difference between the average man being 5'6" and 6", i.e., more than one SD from today's average in either direction.

I understand that it is harrowing to think that even our basic physiological attributes may be determined in no small part by the way we're treated by society (that is to say, that decisions could be made to improve your quality of life but are not), but it is very much a possibility.

>Nope. Emergentism is his avowed conceptual framework, a lens through which he analyzes evidence and draws conclusions. But if the conceptual framework is vacuous, which it is, then that undermines the value of conclusions based on that framework.

You are literally invoking a textbook ad hominem fallacy.

This is like saying you should be skeptical of all scientific claims. But such a claim is in tension with the obvious successes of science and engineering despite the inherent tentativeness of scientific conclusions. Clearly we need something more nuanced. We can draw tentative conclusions and move forward with knowledge while also acknowledging the tentative nature of said knowledge. Global skepticism regarding all scientific results is paralyzing.

>The studies that determined this used datasets from wealthy Western countries that are more ethnically homogeneous than average.

It has to be for any such measure to be meaningful. For example, if you put a toddler in a box and starve it to death, its development stops completely. But this doesn't mean that environmental influence is 100% for all phenotypes. Heritability is a blunt measure for something highly multidimensional. As such, care must be used in its interpretation. What heritability tells us is that given similar environments, what variation in measurable traits is due to variation in genetics or variation in environment. An ideal measure of heritability is a function of environment and would be proportional to the rate of change of environmental influence at every step change in environment.

Of course, such a measure is impossible and so we're left with our current blunt measure. But we can reason about some features of the ideal measure. For example, environmental influences have diminishing returns, thus there comes a point at which the rate of change of environmental influence is zero, meaning better or worse environment has no bearing on the trait and genetic variation dominates outcomes. On the other extreme, environmental influences are dominant. The relevant questions for the validity of heritability is whether the rate of change of environmental influence is steep at the current average environment. If it is steep, then it invalidates drawing conclusions based on measured heritability as the value is unstable.

But your point about Dutch average height does not bear on this. The heritability measure is blind to global average changes in quality of environment. The fact that average height grew so substantially implies that the average environment changed substantially over that period. The Flynn effect is another example, where the average IQ across the population grew substantially over a similar time period. But this doesn't have any direct relevance to the heritability measure of IQ. The question is whether current measures of heritability are stable for typical variations in environment. Regarding height, I would guess yes as calories are abundant in the western world, even among the poor.

>You are literally invoking a textbook ad hominem fallacy.

Notice the word fallacy. Identifying logical fallacies by name is to help recognize patterns of invalid arguments. Ad hominem is only relevant if the argument is not valid. But my point a vacuous conceptual framework leading to specious conclusions is a valid argument.

My sister on the other hand had no interest in mathematics whatsoever!

For those who don't know, the Varna system, also known as the caste system has long been justified as the 'natural order' of a scholar's child being a scholar, a warrior's child being a warrior, a tradesmen child being a tradesman and the lowest class of a menial worker's child being a menial worker.

The fact that so many are willing color the discussion with - observable trends seem to suggest this is a natural fact of life is only elementary is both disgusting and unsurprising.

My kids saw a whole lot more of "how technology works" and mathematics during elementary school than most kids. A lawyer's kid probably heard a lot more of argument, rhetoric, and legal reasoning than mine did. They still could do something completely different-- the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome.

And what would be the likelyhood of the child of a single mom working 2 unskilled jobs to be either of those? Like I mentioned in a different comment, Systematic barriers exist without being consciously built and are then perpetuated as just the natural way of things.

And, what you're saying is a bit orthogonal to what was discussed here: attaining social mobility for everyone doesn't need to erase familial proclivities towards certain professions. In your eagerness to speak harshly to everyone else here, I think you're missing that what others are discussing is not what you're attacking.

Indeed, uh... I left a tech career where I averaged making 7 figures a year to run youth programs and help kids from non-engineering backgrounds-- including a large share of disadvantaged kids-- into having many of the same kinds of advantages my kids do in being able to imagine an engineering career and learn basic skills and the details of the path at an early age.

So, please don't lecture me about systematic barriers. You don't need to tear down family traditions and passing down of skills to greatly reduce inequity: you just need to ensure that everyone gets a reasonable chance at a path upwards. Some can show up in my programs and become engineers and mathematicians; others can go in someone else's speech program and become marketers and lawyers; other, more fortunate people, can lean on familial upbringing; and yet others can choose something other than the path of least resistance and do something less probable.

This entire thread of conversation began with my highlighting the parallels of how the Varana system, supposedly of divine origins, accepted and prevalent, even today in Silicon Valley[1], is not dissimilar to what the original article and the parent comment spoke about.

Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said.

[1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+caste+system&t=fpas...

It's not a social justice or caste issue to have a probability distribution that says, say, within the trades, that a plumber's kid is more likely to be a plumber than an electrician, and vice-versa of an electrician's kid, when the two professions are of equal status.

If there's a whole lot of people below the class of tradesmen who have no real path to moving up-- that is a social justice, class, or caste issue. But surely not all manifestations of not-quite-equally likely outcome are social justice, class, or caste issues.

> Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said.

Seriously, the rush to sarcasm/abrasive language is not helpful to actually figuring out what you're arguing or to having a productive conversation.

If you are dedicated to education, there is plenty of opportunity to succeed. It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make it out of poverty easily, but that’s just how the world works. For those that make the effort, it’s very available.

Right, right, my mistake, this is nothing like the Varana system.

Systematic barriers are seldom built consciously, yet they exist and without conscious effort to break down continue to be perpetuated.

From the point of view of opportunities/privileges available to an individual, is there really a difference between the caste system and a class system?

Not so for socioeconomic class. My grandfathers milled steel and mined coal. They made sure their kids became the first generation in the family to attend college. My parents became teachers and made sure their kids focused on education and we all attended “good colleges” and have built careers. My generation is saving for college while the kids are still in diapers.

That’s still systemic advantages from the family, but it’s marked change in economic class in just two generations, which is IMO dramatically different from the Indian caste system. It still matters who your parents are, but in a significantly different (and I think more fair) way.

It amazes me when people think the current socioeconomic structures are fair.

You do realise that most people here, including perhaps you are, economically speaking, closer to being poor than being part of the 1% rich, right? The economic gap between those you might consider poor and yourself is a rounding error magnitude of the gap between yourself and the super rich. This is not an accident.

God forbid, but you and your kids are perhaps one or two medical, legal or natural calamities away from that few generations of advancement you talk about.

I don’t care that someone has well over 5 orders of magnitude more wealth than I have. It doesn’t materially negatively affect my life in the least and, on the contrary, their inventions make my daily life better by wildly more than any negative impacts their houses, yachts, airplanes, or rockets could possibly have.

I’m here to spend my life energy and time pursuing the things that are important to me: raising and loving my family, doing work and hobbies I find stimulating, traveling and learning about the world. Bellyaching that I’m not a literal or figurative monarch is not among the ways I choose to spend my time and energy.

Wait, are you under the impression that people with extreme wealth typically got it by inventing something?

It's called capitalism because the owners of capital reap most of society's economic rewards. Which is in the form of more capital.

IOW, the rich get richer.

The optimal wealth investment strategy to grow a large pile of money into a larger pile over the long term is pretty simple too (rebalance your portfolio annually, buy and hold), and attempts at a 'smarter' strategy tend to fail pretty miserably.

The American story used to be rags-to-riches-to-rags, but not anymore. These days once you've reached 'riches' your descendants are fairly likely to stay rich, and laziness on their part (ie. leaving the money pile on autopilot) is actually an asset (eg. Donald Trump would be a wealthier today if he had invested his inheritance and just left it alone).

Conversely, it is harder than ever to go from rags-to-riches in the first place.

You do not benefit from the wealthy in society pulling the ladder up behind themselves.

My parents are not intellectual in the least. The career advice I received from them growing up was all bad. Lucky for me I ignored them.

Now take one kid getting bad career advice and another kid getting good career advice from mom and dad.

After thousands of iterations the asymmetry is going to be huge.

Sorry that doesn't line up with the institutional victim mentality.

Legislators seem to get more done if they are well-connected, for example, and a parent introducing you to their connections makes you a better legislator, probably at a younger age than your parent. Yes, you can do some job shadowing at this other dentist's office: I can put in a good word for you at the electrician's union so you can get into the schooling they offer. Yes, you can work at my plumbing company and learn - it isn't like this state requires licenses, so you'll be just fine.

Both are extremely competitive with only a select few spots in the entire country. Additionally, starting at a very young age is a huge advantage for both athletes and aspiring academics.

Peyton and Eli Manning are the sons of Archie Manning. Ken Griffey Jr. and his dad played on the same team at one point. Jr.'s son "Trey" made it into the NFL as a wide receiver.

It does seem to matter to a degree. It's not a guarantee though.

Unless she turns out to be an idiot, in which case I may need to force a path.

on edit: by paying I also mean all the perks you get as well (just as when I negotiate on a job I also negotiate the perks), when you're growing up and see you have a pretty good life that would be something that might attract you to the field your parents are in. So academics might not get paid as much as the private sector but at the higher levels there are some pretty sweet perks.