News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by xibalba on Friday June 04, 2021 @02:39PM (#27397332)
Would you please demonstrate to me how I, Joe Q. Public, can find out, via collected data that I can access, with whom another person is sleeping with?

Or, in lieu of that, walk me through how that would be done with Facebook's, Google's, or Apple's data via your first-hand knowledge of those data and where and how they are stored and accessed?

These fear mongering comments about data collection have never demonstrated real world harms, AFAIK. It reminds me of the genetically engineered foods bogeyman that, in spite of a complete lack of empirical evidence, continues to be trotted out as a huge danger.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by rootusrootus on Friday June 04, 2021 @02:56PM (#27397578)
If you think the problem is merely Facebook, Google, or Apple, then I think you are underestimating the amount of data and who is processing it. There is an entire industry of companies you have never heard of that are thinking up ever more creative ways to put data together from various sources, identify it, correlate it, and then sell the 'insights' to whoever wants to pay.

At the very least, at a bare minimum, I think we need legislation that covers how this kind of data processing happens by third-party companies and we need to provide a way for citizens to at least see what data has been collected about them and what 'insights' it has generated.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by saddlerustle on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:07PM (#27397742)
Which company, apart from Facebook, Google and Apple, would remotely have access to any of the data on that list? Facebook Google and Apple don't share data with data brokers.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by rootusrootus on Friday June 04, 2021 @04:11PM (#27398560)
Up until very recently, a lot of this could be done by any of a number of innocuous looking apps with tracking toolkits installed. Sometimes knowingly, sometimes not.

Even now, the problem is that you want the data sometimes. Like maybe you use Life360 because it's handy for your family. Well, it knows how fast you drive (it likes to tell me my wife's top speed after she goes somewhere...). It has enough accelerometer access to decide if you've been in a wreck. It's a GPS app so of course it has pretty tight location information. And maybe you consent to all this, but hidden somewhere in the TOS it says Life360 may share this info with selected partner companies. Now it gets slurped up by big data warehouses.

Maybe you install a sleep tracking app. Now they know how well you sleep, and I would bet they could pretty accurately figure out if/when you're having sex. Depending on the device, they might even be able to guess whether or not it was solo.

Perhaps you don't like the limited options Apple has for pedometer data, so you install Pedometer++. Another possible avenue for data collection.

Or Instacart, Uber, Uber Eats, etc.

So. Much. Data.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by saddlerustle on Friday June 04, 2021 @04:20PM (#27398643)
This is a good point and a good reason to prefer first-party apps!

No need to hide it, Life360 clearly states right near the top of its privacy policy "In order to keep our Service free for most users, we generate revenue through trusted data partnerships. We share device data, including location and movement data, with trusted data Partners for tailored advertising"

Re:Why we should end the data economy by decasteve on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:35PM (#27398111)
Akamai and Microsoft.

When your Apple device communicates with "Apple", many/most of those IP addresses are owned by Akamai.

Even when you search DuckDuckGo, both the search results (Bing) and web servers that serve the content are owned by Microsoft (Azure).

Re:Why we should end the data economy by saddlerustle on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:54PM (#27398373)
That covers one or two of the list I suppose, but is there any reason to believe Akamai is lying to its customers and harvesting their users' data? I can't think of any incentive for them to do that, it would be brazen fraud for an insignificant revenue source.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by decasteve on Friday June 04, 2021 @05:44PM (#27399421)
I wasn't trying to make a point other than sharing examples of companies, like Akamai, that store a lot of personal data on behalf of others. Storing data with Apple is storing it with Akamai, and all of the other third parties involved--where "third parties" becomes a blanket term in privacy policies and not an exhaustive list. The "chain of trust" in this regard has some missing links.

So far as their businesses are concerned, the data is safeguarded and I would never expect it to be sold--not by the top of the data food chain in any case.

But there's the issue of data being stored with US companies requiring being subject to US laws, such as the USA PATRIOT Act.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by alexanderdmitri on Friday June 04, 2021 @04:28PM (#27398723)
Akamai's privacy policy on personal data: https://www.akamai.com/us/en/privacy-policies/privacy-shield...
Re:Why we should end the data economy by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:16PM (#27397847)
Dating sites would have that kind of data and have been breached in the past (Ashley Madison was one high profile instance, as I recall).
Re:Why we should end the data economy by saddlerustle on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:59PM (#27398434)
I don't recall the Ashley Madison leak having anything remotely similar to the data on OP's list.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Friday June 04, 2021 @05:16PM (#27399172)
I was replying a later comment that was considering whether that list should include knowing who you’ve slept with.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by TchoBeer on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:36PM (#27398116)
I've somehow never heard of this, that's a wild story.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by zikduruqe on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:31PM (#27398062)
You cellular company has first party signal data, that even the big tech companies don't have.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by saddlerustle on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:58PM (#27398424)
All the internet access examples on that list would use encrypted connections, so a cellular company wouldn't be privy. Cellular companies do have course location data, but to be pedantic that doesn't really apply to any of OP's list.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by thegagne on Friday June 04, 2021 @06:48PM (#27399959)
Server name indicator from ssl is not encrypted and neither are most dns queries.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by eropple on Friday June 04, 2021 @07:02PM (#27400068)
> use encrypted connections

TLS SNI.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by belter on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:24PM (#27397970)
I have a bridge to sell you.

"Gmail messages 'read by human third parties'" https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44699263

"One company told the Wall Street Journal that the practice was "common" and a "dirty secret". ...Google indicated that the practice was not against its policies."

Re:Why we should end the data economy by saddlerustle on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:50PM (#27398311)
That article is just describing gmail APIs, which requires explicit user consent via oauth to enable. This is no more shocking than gmail supporting IMAP.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by belter on Friday June 04, 2021 @04:13PM (#27398581)
"The companies said they had not asked users for specific permission to read their Gmail messages, because the practice was covered by their user agreements."
Re:Why we should end the data economy by saddlerustle on Friday June 04, 2021 @04:51PM (#27398931)
Regardless of what those third party companies told their users, users would have had to accept a pretty clear dialog [1] delegating access to their Gmail accounts. That's just how google oauth works.

[1] https://i.stack.imgur.com/aBTMm.png

Re:Why we should end the data economy by criddell on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:07PM (#27397744)
Facebook, Google, et. al. might not make the data available to you, but they have it.

If the information is stored on servers in China, then the Chinese government has it as well. Maybe you aren't a Chinese citizen so you don't care, but it's at least worth considering.

The politicians we elect to craft and enact legislation that affects the big data companies are always at risk of being essentially blackmailed by those companies with the incredibly detailed and personal information that those companies have on politicians.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by smithza on Friday June 04, 2021 @05:07PM (#27399089)
I am very skeptical about the implications of this take. You paint this as "big data companies are actively lobbying/threatening politicians to enact legislation helpful for big data using their big data troves." There are politicians who work in good faith and have non-controversial backgrounds who would not be liable to these blackmails and still don't work hard enough to enact legislation to protect citizens. This is not a big data conspiracy as much as lack of political willpower.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by weswpg on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:47PM (#27408700)
> These fear mongering comments about data collection have never demonstrated real world harms

Notable examples:

* Strava revealed the position of US military bases

* Muslim prayer apps sharing location data with US military

In my own experience, I work for a call center. We have many important American companies as clients. They give us access to their systems so that we can service their clients. I am overseas dealing with their customers and I can access their personal information. I can see their face linked to their Facebook profile. I admit I've been tempted to misuse the information any time a customer makes me angry.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by Raidion on Friday June 04, 2021 @02:53PM (#27397533)
I'm undecided on this topic, but playing devil's advocate: Does the fact that this knowledge exists, and only in the hands of some of the largest (and most pervasive) tech companies in the world, make this information 'safer', or does it mean that it's a 'force multiplier' that increases the risk that this information will be used a) to enable anti-competitive behavior or b) be co-opted by authoritarian governments to suppress dissent.

I personally think that if I give this data to a company, and they keep it "safe" and only to support features that are beneficial to me, that's totally OK, but I wouldn't like companies reselling my mobility data to health insurers (without aggregation or cohorting) to give me a 100% customized insurance rate, regardless of how beneficial that would be.

Data that's used to distill people down to a number and value them precisely seems to have a potential to enforce systematic inequalities and further improve the lives of "haves" at the cost of "have nots".

Re:Why we should end the data economy by kbsspl on Friday June 04, 2021 @04:18PM (#27398626)
Safer in what sense ? What would be your take on government tolerance to the existence of such data ? Someone from the clandestine teams would always want to utilise it ? How well could the businesses resist.

Anti competitive behavior, I would think comes automatically with such massive centralisation. What's scary is the ability to mass incite riots, using knowledge of the most susceptible audience to fake news and pushing it out incendiary posts to exactly that audience. India has faced multiple such incidents already. Deliberate ? Maybe in the sense of affinity algorithms.

With the backdrop of the Stanford experiment, and a host of other biases giving almost tribal warrior behavior, should such affinity data be allowed for collection ?

My apologies if this sounds drastic, but data collection generates micro nukes, generated based on turning individuals into an array of microcrucibles.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:19PM (#27397885)
Or on the flip side of that question: is it safer in the hands of the user, to be shared as desired, by explicitly opting in, or would it be safer in the hands of a corporate entity?
Re:Why we should end the data economy by lobocinza on Friday June 04, 2021 @08:40PM (#27400833)
You don't get it. It's not just FAANG and the risk adds everyday. Eventually some of those companies will go bankrupt, be hacked and the data will get in the hands of malicious actors and will be use to commit fraud, to blackmail, etc. Also even if it's used legally and 'ethically' it means things like: 1- we will pay you less because you only earned X at your last job, 2 - we will increase your healthcare costs because you bought a pregnancy test online.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/largest-personal-data-leaka...

Re:Why we should end the data economy by supercanuck on Friday June 04, 2021 @02:55PM (#27397569)
Re:Why we should end the data economy by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:14PM (#27397830)
Think along the lines of dating apps that show your distance to other users. That could be mined for changes in proximity over time - one day you are miles apart, then next day you are within 500ft of each other for the whole night.
Re:Why we should end the data economy by dredmorbius on Saturday June 05, 2021 @07:04PM (#27409149)
There was Uber's "God View" which showed travel history of customers, which was at one point available to anyone who could pass Uber's driver onboarding process.

Venture capitalist Peter Sims wrote about being tracked in a blog post this September. Back in 2011, he wrote, he was in an Uber car in Manhattan when he started receiving text messages from someone he barely knew telling him exactly where he was. That person later told him that she was at an Uber launch party in Chicago, where Sims' movements were being tracked via God View on a large public screen.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johanabhuiyan/uber-is-i...

https://www.theverge.com/2016/1/6/10726004/uber-god-mode-set...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ypw5n7/ubers-god-view-was-on...

Re:Why we should end the data economy by korse on Friday June 04, 2021 @04:34PM (#27398784)
You need to know something about your person of interest, other than a name. Then you need access to multiple data sets.

Use a list like this as a starting point.

https://www.oag.ca.gov/data-brokers

Commuter data is good, so is foot traffic. Data sets centered around health and income or quality of life can be beneficial as well. The game is to use publicly available information about your person to tie them conclusively to set of entries in an 'anonymized' data set.

If you aren't at least investigative journalist tier or the resources you need cost too much/require a corporate presence, then hire someone to do it for you who already has the pipeline set up. PI's have been available to Joe Q. for years and they still are. This all just makes them even more efficient.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by zarify on Friday June 04, 2021 @05:59PM (#27399560)
There have been a number of instances here in .au where centralised location/health/etc data has been misused (stalking, checking out potential dates, domestic abuse or aiding domestic abusers) through inappropriate access. I doubt we're unique.

I'd argue that it doesn't need to be "Joe Q. Public", because companies are made up of Joe Q. Publics.

Re:Why we should end the data economy by bluGill on Friday June 04, 2021 @03:56PM (#27398410)
Not all of it is data you can access as the public. However as the author of a program with access to internet and location you can easily upload where the phone is at all times and thus figure out when two are near each other. (this is why newer phones OSes let users choose if the program can access these things all the time or only when active)