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Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by underseacables on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:45PM (#27282400)
YouTube has never shied away from monetizing human rights abuses. I guess this is no different.

Before watching this video of a journalist who was kidnapped and possibly tortured to give you this false statement, here’s an ad about liberty mutual life insurance. Liberty!

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by alfalfasprout on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:19PM (#27282826)
Frankly it's stuff like this that gives me pause about ever working at a company like Google. It's truly disgusting.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by croes on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:29PM (#27283563)
Name any big company that values human rights over money. It's gonna be a short list.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by smsm42 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:26PM (#27284104)
You don't have to be working for FAANG. There are literally thousands of companies that do not require you to serve brutal European dictators as your daily job. Yes, the salary would be just "good beyond the dreams of any average American" instead of "obscenely and ridiculously high, I mean who even gets this kind of money?!" - but it's possible to survive in America on low-to-middle six figures, surprisingly.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by asveikau on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:37PM (#27285528)
> There are literally thousands of companies that do not require you to serve brutal European dictators as your daily job.

That's right! There are plenty of other continents with dictators to give into!

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by smsm42 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @02:03AM (#27286922)
If that's your thing, there would be those too. Stay away from the Antarctica ones though - I've heard bad things about them.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by asveikau on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:05AM (#27291442)
Penguins make cruel masters.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by uh_uh on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:53PM (#27283811)
I'm not trying to defend Google here but could it be the case that they're simply not aware of the issue, or rather the issue didn't reach the appropriate people within the organisation who can get these ads removed?

I don't know how much Google is profiting from the Belarusian government, but unless it's a lot, I doubt Google would actively try keeping these ads. If it is a lot of money, that's indeed a data point which supports the theory that they're acting out of greed.

The above of course doesn't excuse Google's mismanagement of the situation, but doing something bad out of incompetence is a different kind of failure (with different remedies necessary) than doing the same out of greed.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by smsm42 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:35PM (#27284192)
They ban literally hundreds of thousands of videos for all kinds of sins, from all kinds of people - from US Congressmen to Bob Dylan. But the hostage video made as a result of the most prominent event that happened in Europe, where the last European dictator has hijacked a foreign plane to snatch a dissident - they just never heard anything about it, and nobody can find anybody to contact about it. Yea right, totally believable.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by uh_uh on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:20PM (#27284567)
I'm not saying that YouTube employees are not aware of the kidnapping, most of them probably are.

I'm saying that most of them — including those who can do something about it — are probably not aware that this ad got through their approval system. If you think this is not the case, you underestimate how inefficiently information travels in large organisations.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by smsm42 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @02:01AM (#27286910)
I think their filtering system by now is powerful enough to catch anything they want. And it's not some anonymous account as I understand that uploaded it in the dark hour of the night under the guise of unpacking video - they knew who the canal belongs to, and they took money from them. They knew, or they should have known and willfully ignored it - which bears the same responsibility.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by squeaky-clean on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:34PM (#27284668)
They're probably not aware of it, but this isn't an isolated case. Google clearly is not aware of a ton of problematic stuff in the ecosystem they've created. That's the problem here.

As for how much they're profiting off of it? Probably not much from just the Belarusian government, but they don't just have morally awful ads by Belarus, they have morally awful ads coming from probably thousands of advertisers. This one is just exceptionally disgusting. But I doubt an actual human was even involved in the responses about this ad.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by uh_uh on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:00PM (#27284842)
I agree with all this. I view this case as collateral damage from their lax policies.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by wxnx on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:11PM (#27283982)
I think the usual argument is more along the lines of: Google's greed prevents them from putting the proper controls in place to prevent these sorts of abuses of the system, because those controls would cost too much. Not so much that any particular specific instance of abuse is particularly profitable.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by jlawer on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:06PM (#27283924)
The problem is that groups have been raising it for a year (mentioned in the article). Google have structures / policies in place to avoid things like this appearing on the radar of those who make policy. Therefore any screw up is nobodies fault and they can keep banking the cheques.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by jrochkind1 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:18PM (#27284031)
It is possible to choose not to work at a big company.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by brutal_chaos_ on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:33PM (#27283595)
I'm still looking and almost homeless. Our corporate culture is rotten to the core.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by _carbyau_ on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:55PM (#27283832)
My wife is part way through an MBA. One course is "corporate ethics". When she told me, I laughed so hard... the very definition of an oxymoron.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by cperciva on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:17PM (#27284550)
I happened to attend the retirement party for the Dean of the Faculty of Business at my alma mater, and he recounted the story of the hardest term of teaching he ever had, in his early days at the institution.

At 11:30-12:20, he taught a course on advertising. At 12:30-13:20, he taught a course on business ethics. Every time a student asked a question, he had to stop and remember which course he was teaching before he answered!

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by smsm42 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:38PM (#27284219)
There was an article I read some time ago about a guy who writes term papers and such assignments for sale - he said his most frequent customers are "business ethics" course students. Makes you think.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by layer8 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:35PM (#27283615)
Sounds like a good reason not to work for a big company then.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by viraptor on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:18PM (#27284552)
Have a look at companies certified with https://www.bcorporation.com.au/
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by IAmGraydon on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:46PM (#27283738)
Many big companies at least understand the cost of bad PR.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:13PM (#27283996)
Patagonia. I don't know a lot more though.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by BitwiseFool on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:28PM (#27282923)
"Don't be Evil" is outdated. Now it's "Do the right thing".
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by zibzab on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:40PM (#27283062)
Do the right thing

To get us another deal

Sometimes it's a bit evil

Sometimes just a bit shady

And don't you ever worry

If we cancel anything it will be Hangsout, Play Music, Timely and Poly

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by munk-a on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:05PM (#27283906)
I'm still sad over losing iGoogle.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by Tade0 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:10PM (#27283371)
Suddenly the JSON license doesn't appear that problematic.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by 746487482 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:40PM (#27283674)
It still appears as problematic as ever to me because a judge is pretty much the last person I would trust to decide what is and isn't evil.

I can't even imagine how a hypothetical well-intentioned judge who wanted to apply that provision correctly would proceed. The judge would basically have to choose between imposing their own personal view on good and evil or declaring the provision nonjusticiable.

Maybe the license could include a mandatory arbitration clause with an arbitrator who shares the author's values, but that still sounds like a terrible idea.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by smsm42 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:39PM (#27284236)
Still does. Nobody wants to be beholden to what one guy's definition of "evil" would be this morning. That doesn't mean ethics does not exist. It's just not done through copyright licensing.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by bjohnson225 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:17PM (#27283447)
That just invites the question “for who?”.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by MichaelMoser123 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:36PM (#27283620)
new sloagan for Google: "we make money out of bloggers .... in any capacity".
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by shadowgovt on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:09PM (#27283360)
It was an interesting experience.

I went in assuming someone's in charge, but honestly, most of the mistakes Google makes are in the category "nobody's in charge." They operate at a scale where everyone tries to use them to do everything. That's everything good and everything bad. They've been both a force for normalizing LGBTQ identity and a force against it, a mass communication tool and a mass oppression tool, a platform to help people and a platform to stalk people. They actively manage, observe, maintain, and regulate only a subset of the space of uses their tools allow.

This is explanation, not excuse. I'm not there anymore because I think it should be their responsibility to take responsibility reflective of their size and impact. I lost faith that the leadership agreed.

In this specific example, my assumption from personal priors is they let this ad in because there's nobody in charge of negative-filtering ads like this until complaints come, and in the absence of policy the default policy is "allow." They have categories to catch ads for illegal substances, various forms of illegal activity, and so on, but "A state-level actor will use our ad platform to paint a false message of the status of a political prisoner" is a new one for them.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by philsnow on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:36PM (#27283623)
> I'm not there anymore because I think it should be their responsibility to take responsibility reflective of their size and impact. I lost faith that the leadership agreed.

I fully agree with you, and I don't think that there's any going back: the founders don't care about this, a CEO generally only takes a principled stand on things like this when it's their baby, but Google is not Sundar's baby.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by mleonhard on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:21PM (#27283489)
If it looks like nobody in Google is in charge, it's only because the execs refuse to take action and the board refuses to properly incentivize the execs.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by shadowgovt on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:39PM (#27283653)
And perhaps importantly: the board can't incentivize the execs. Not alone.

Alphabet is still majority-owned by the founders as of 2019. In practice, the board is advisory; 100% of stockholders who's names aren't "Larry Page" and "Sergey Brin" could vote the same on an issue, and the issue will carry in whatever direction Larry and Sergey say it should if both agree.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by ocdtrekkie on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:39PM (#27283668)
"The board" is Larry and Sergey, from a realistic voting power standpoint. All of this is ultimately their fault.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by ronsor on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:35PM (#27283606)
I dislike a lot of Google's practices as much as the next guy, but this is literally just a case of "nobody paying serious attention" rather than outright malice. We all (should) know that moderation at Google is mostly black-box bots that may or may not work properly.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by munk-a on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:09PM (#27283953)
Here's the thing though. That doesn't matter.

Whether it's malicious or not, Google created this ecosystem where you need to process and serve a bazillion ads to compete with them, if they're unable to properly vet those ads it's on them to scale back to a size where they can properly vet them.

If this was a one-off issue then sure - but Google runs a lot of really slimy advertisements.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by jawline on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:15PM (#27284536)
Yeah - beyond political issues they also just outright advertise pyramid schemes. I live in Hong Kong and most of the adverts here are for a clearly fraudulent scheme that advertises by having young women screaming and showing a bank balance on a phone.

It's pretty telling that even small-ish video producers are willing to vet their advertising partners more thoroughly.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by strken on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:09PM (#27284903)
I think it does matter, because a decentralised system would have much greater problems moderating content than Google does today. If this was coming from the Belarusian government bidding for ad time on thousands of peertube instances and the response was piecemeal requests to each federated instance's admin team, then it would also take a very long time to remove from the system as a whole. It might well be impossible to remove it from every popular instance.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by Judgmentality on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:27PM (#27285044)
A better solution is for Google to hire more people to help with moderation. It's just that Google doesn't want to spend more money, it wants to make more profit.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by nullc on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:06PM (#27284480)
> but this is literally just a case of "nobody paying serious attention" rather than outright malice.

Hate to break it to you, but that is how most evil in the world works-- through callous indifference and incompetence, not through some cartoon villain.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by kodah on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:55PM (#27284393)
> this is literally just a case of "nobody paying serious attention" rather than outright malice

That's always been the case and it still doesn't matter. It would matter if this was an isolated thing that happened every once in a while, but the outcome has been the same, which makes it not matter when it's been going on for so long.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by elliekelly on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:44PM (#27284290)
Except (if the allegations in the tweet are true) the issue has been brought to YouTube’s attention. It’s hard to plead innocent inadvertent ignorance if you were specifically put on notice.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by idlewords on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:39PM (#27284229)
That's the disgusting thing about it.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by dominotw on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:34PM (#27285513)
> It's truly disgusting.

But why are you not quitting. I am sure you can find another job within a week. Curious what you choose to stay.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by ashtonkem on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:41PM (#27285556)
It’s not clear to me from their comment that they actually work at Google.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by Aunche on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:58PM (#27283855)
It seems like preemptively complaining about downvoted, somehow increases your karma, so inb4 I get downvoted for being a "shill".

This is the kind of reactionary attitude that causes YouTube to tune its moderation algorithms to be overly err on the side of demonetizing. Later, even more people will complain that their favorite YouTuber is being demonetized. Everyone has their own brilliant ideas of perfect moderation, but at the end of the day, they would never be willing to accept that responsibility themselves and the blowback that comes with it. See the grandstanding that occured during the section 230 Congressional hearings as a perfect example.

Why can't YouTube simply just make a mistake and correct for it? When governments failed to protect a plane from being forcibly escorted, I don't see why people expect a private business to fix all the world's geopolitical issues.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by ALittleLight on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:48PM (#27284762)
It's a reactionary attitude to ask that services you pay for with time or money work well? Yes, I expect YouTube to remove objectionable content and not remove innocuous content. I don't expect them to be perfect, but I do expect "pretty good and getting better" and they fall far short.

It matters that they are falling short and only correct their mistakes when massive social pressure is applied because most issues can't generate the social pressure needed to get Google to notice. That means most of their errors won't actually get fixed.

Google makes insane amounts of profits, but they don't have the resources to moderate content well?

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by drzaiusapelord on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:45PM (#27284742)
This is such a brilliant comment. Everyone seems to know what perfect moderation is because they see something they don't like and know it should be removed, which is fair enough I suppose, but if we wrote policy on all those events to cover them pre-emptively then they can probably kiss 50% of their popular streamers away, especially those who lean conservative (hatespeech, bigotry, and ironically Russian propaganda problems) and gamers (lots of n word drops, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, etc).

So youtube can do this but if they did it, the very same people who claim to want this would lose their collective minds. They don't realize they're baddies too on some level, and want only their own kind of baddies to have free reign in the media.

Great point about the governments too! Youtube can't fix what trillions in collective worldwide military spending can't fix. If dictators are this brazen and getting away wit this, as well as the American dictator wanna-be getting away with 1/6, sorry but FAANG can't help you. We're too fargone for tech solutions at this point. Fix your governments first.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by vineyardmike on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:50PM (#27285217)
> YouTube to tune its moderation algorithms to be overly err on the side of demonetizing.

Yeah but this video is of a political prisoner who was tortured and the account is a government account.

The youtubers getting improperly demonetized are often minorities with content that could be offensive to some group of people (eg. gay youtubers talking about their life... is offensive to extremely religious people).

There is a big moderation quality gap between "official government posts torture prisoners" and "random gay 21yo in LA describes college life". I DO expect youtube to be able to get this balance at least right, all of the time.

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by zwkrt on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:03PM (#27284456)
The problem with YouTube isn’t the specific way it is moderated it is the entire ecosystem it creates. It is addictive for end users. It devalues “content” (an advertising term for the things on the page that aren’t ads) that doesn’t hook users. It is hostile to creative projects that don’t carefully avoid IP or monetization guidelines. It has no incentive to uphold the public interest in terms of information distributed, liberties upheld, or mental health. Like a paper clip maximizer YouTube has a singular goal of increasing revenue; users, children, content, creators, employees, and international peace be damned.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by gipp on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:40PM (#27283673)
I get responding to this with something like "YouTube's processes are broken." What doesn't make sense is "YouTube is happy to profit off human rights abuses."

YT must deal with probably hundreds of new ads a day. They stand to gain nearly nothing from running this particular ad, and stand to lose quite a lot, even from a pure corporate-self-interest perspective. Which is more likely: that YT said "screw human rights abuses, gimme the cash" in full knowledge of what was going on, or that some contractor who had already reviewed a dozen that day and maybe hasn't even seen the news articles clicked a button without proper due diligence, and YT hadn't factored "what if a developed nation's government openly advertises human rights abuses" into its oversight processes?

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by xwolfi on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:57PM (#27283845)
Yeah but you know it's hard to defend when they take money, show a tortured confession, don't reply to signal, then act as sorry pikachus years later when Belarus, so emboldened by western impotence, just pretends there are terrorist attacks just to arrest one journalist
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by dilyevsky on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @05:11PM (#27282728)
Possibly? Look at his face
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by xmprt on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:17PM (#27285389)
It's really strange how companies are so quick to advertise human rights violations while demonitizing any content that is even slightly sexual or not brand friendly. There are arguments for both sides but companies aren't even internally consistent.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by dzhiurgis on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:18PM (#27284984)
Their CEO awarded herself freedom of speech award.
Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by Farfromthehood on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:37PM (#27283634)
At least the family has some proof of life. Maybe the videos can help push for his release.

Although I'm sure these aren't the reasons YouTube approved the ad(s).

Re:YouTube approves ad by Belarusian gov with journalist fro... by hanniabu on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @06:44PM (#27283721)
Likewise with animal rights abuse. There's tons of channel that make a living off abusing animals