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Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by dalbasal on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:35AM (#27206759)
I sympathize with a lot of this, and we'd probably agree at the practical level.

As a matter of principle though... the principle is violated inevitably. A prison guard "profits" (or rather, makes a living by) imprisonment. Any company supplying a prison profits. Community service is forced labour, etc.

That said, I totally agree on incentives. It's dangerous, especially private prisons.

The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done, but just paying pennies per hour does not sit well. Maybe a 3rd party should get the money, and this could take on a restorative rather than punitive aspect. There might even be a case for demonetize prison labour, supply the food directly to food banks instead of for market.

The phrase, "debt to society" is used often. Debts are not redeemed by suffering, generally.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by emj on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:49AM (#27206861)
> "debt to society"

My thought is that prison guards are paid because their work is a "debt to society", to force people to slave labour on a daily basis can not be good for you. In the same vein, I think society looses by systematically making prison guards slavers. I believe this is the case for ordinary prison guards as well, but in that case at least the correctional part could be believable.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by roflc0ptic on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @07:28AM (#27207134)
Fair points, if I were being more careful I'd probably phrase it in terms of "we should minimize incentives for regulatory capture that leads to mass incarceration." As I get older I'm increasingly less idealistic a lot more comfortable with the fact that the world is a generally irrational and unfair place, but this is a topic that still rather gets my goat.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by dalbasal on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @08:56AM (#27207909)
I think ideals are important, they just also get us into trouble when we overapply them. We forget that they're ideals, and think of them as reality.

A capitalist or communist ideal(s), for example, can be good. People dealing with each other by beneficial mutual agreement. People cooperating out of social solidarity. Both exist (imperfectly) in the world.

The problems come when we overapply these ideas. Justifying abusive labour practices or banking excesses because Adam Smith's village baker parable must apply to all things always. Building whole worldviews from a core ideal, as if it were F=ma.

Modern prisons evolved entirely out of their ideals. Imprisonment wasn't a common punishment until modern times, and the early logic (eg bentham) was about rehabilitation. Lots of (retrospectively ugly) ideals about morality and character were at play. Lots of horrible things done in their name. The project essentially failed, and rehabilitation aspect of prison devolved into vestigial formalities.

I imagine the rehabilitation ideal seemed enlightened, relative to the punitive ideals of previous eras. The US' 18th century "cruel and unusual punishment" concept related, I imagine, to these new enlightenment era ideals. A few hundred years later, and we can't even imagine a society without prisons. We're not even quite sure what they're for. At least, we don't agree on what they're for.

Sorry for getting so abstract.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by AaronM on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @11:06AM (#27209701)
Pay them minimum wage, put the money into a savings account for them, use that money to pay off their restitution, with some money set aside for them to be able to live on release.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by dfilppi on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @12:46PM (#27211155)
The cost of imprisoning them is borne by taxpayers, but the imprisoned arenl responsible. So add that to their income.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by MikeUt on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:39AM (#27206784)
> The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done

Is there a reason other than "because they can get away with it"?

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by dalbasal on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:44AM (#27206819)
A reason why its done, or why it bothers me?
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by MikeUt on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @07:00AM (#27206938)
Why it's done.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:18AM (#27208138)
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by MikeUt on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:47AM (#27208519)
Oh, I meant why "real" pay isn't done - why they are paid a pittance.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @10:17AM (#27208952)
Like I said:

>prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work

Who cares how much they get paid? They're prisoners! /sarcasm

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by kwanbix on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:43AM (#27206806)
So, is it too crazy to think that prisoners need to pay for the accommodation, food, electricity, water, etc. that they receive while being in prison?
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Ekaros on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @07:05AM (#27206971)
I find that bit crazy. It is local society's wish to imprison them, and thus deprive them from opportunity to earn money to pay those things on open market. Thus it should be up to them to provide them with that, that is if they want them to be imprisoned. They could just let them go free, or excommunicate them...
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by dandellion on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @07:29AM (#27207138)
That's a weird thing to say. Do people in the US go around wishing prison for others? Here it's more like society is cornered into imprisoning some people in self-defense, because it hasn't figured out how to get those individuals to collaborate and live cordially with others.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:25AM (#27208223)
>Do people in the US go around wishing prison for others?

Yes.

Lock her "Hillary Clinton" up, and lock him "Donald trump" up are very real wishes of many Americans. The war on drugs, poverty, and in general garbage tvlike live pd, Jerry Springer, dr Phil, has helped to breed this retributional bent into American culture.

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by gbear605 on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:14AM (#27208107)
Ah yes, I really hate it when we have to put people in jail to protect ourselves from checks notes them smoking a joint.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by kwanbix on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @08:11AM (#27207478)
Society don't "wish to imprison them" they go to prison to pay for a debt with society. Society wishes that nobody committed crimes so there where no prisons. At least I believe so.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:22AM (#27208181)
It is societies responsibility to nurture law abiding citizens. Thus, criminals are societies burden to bear, for the unimprisoneds failings.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by kwanbix on Thursday May 20, 2021 @03:47AM (#27218516)
Really? I thought it was the parents responsibility. Of course schools have a part on it, but "society"? How would you do that? Please elaborate.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Thursday May 20, 2021 @12:12PM (#27223033)
"It takes a village to raise a child" -African proverb

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_takes_a_village

>"Many adults who have experienced disrupted or deficient attachments when young will, from whatever source, find sufficient resilience to grow into well-balanced adults."

We, all off us as society, have a role to play in ensuring that all people are sufficiently resilient. Furthermore, to breed this resiliency we must all occasionally make sacrifices so that those with great need do not suffer neglect.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247755669_Using_att...

For a practical discussion we can look at community crime prevention.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Crime_Prevention

Ultimately, we can pay for success on the front end (prevention) or failure on the back end (imprisonment).

>"The sooner at-risk students are identified, the more likely that preventative "remediation" measures will be effective."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-risk_students

Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by Aunche on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @08:11AM (#27207475)
I agree that it makes sense for these costs to be factored into a prisoner's pay, since everyone else needs to pay these expenses. That might make a case for someone being paid $3 a hour, not 30 cents an hour. Also, in this case, the savings are passed to private businesses rather than the taxpayers.
Re:How corporations buy and food made with prison labor by kwanbix on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @08:24AM (#27207598)
The savings part you are right. They should go back to the taxpayers or ONGs.