I don't see how wearing a mask is irrational just because it may not be critically necessary. It doesn't measurably inconvenience me to keep my mask on, and I don't have to think about when I do need to put it on, so even a marginal safety benefit may be worth it.
Look at the data.
However, I agree with you, whoever wants to wear a mask can. Just don’t expect others to wear one too. Your own paranoia does not mean you get to tell others what to do.
The way that the death rate in SF is very low comparatively suggests that overshooting with social policy has been very effective.
Those "performative displays of mask wearing in public when it isn't really necessary" actually worked.
Wearing masks when you don't have to produced social pressure towards wearing masks all the time and when it was more necessary and that turns out to have saved lives.
They should start unwinding that now, but it'll take a few months.
For all the people who fixate on the fact that "its not necessary" -- yes, it was, because humans aren't rational like you think they should be. Yep, we're often just "sheep" and "follow the herd", but the "irrational" policies in SF saved lives.
Looking at the graphs of the SF metro area they did about as good as Seattle metro did even though SF is more densely packed. They were way better than Dallas and saved a lot of lives compared to LA.
How do you determine when the right point to start unwinding it is? Just glancing at random new-cases-in-SF graphs on google, we're somewhat better off than 1 year ago, but not like by an order of magnitude. Based on that, I think I'll want to keep wearing a mask and avoid people who aren't wearing masks where not too troublesome, for now.
And the rate is still declining, at some point it'll be under 1 in 100,000 which would be 3,300 cases per day across the united states. I doubt we can achieve a lot better than that given that there's 883 million outpatient visits per year (CDC stats) with 1% of them for influenza like illness in the summertime which is a 24,000/day minimum rate. Having 10% of that background be coronavirus is probably the lowest it'll go.
There's always going to be some level of coronavirus spread, but if you're vaccinated and the level of spread is where its at now in SF then you need to be more worried about getting T-boned by an Escalade (particularly the way people blow red lights in SF).
So the people in this thread are correct. The time to unwind is pretty much now. At the same time they're unreasonable to expect everyone to just instantly drop everything because they're failing to account for the way people behave (and particularly when the strategy has been successful for the past ~15 months).
https://covidactnow.org/share/36630/?redirectTo=%2Fus%2Fmetr...
(think you may need to scroll up)
That compares SF to Orlando, Miami and LA. And SF includes Oakland in that graph (SF County's numbers are slightly lower).
That is for all the "then how do you explain how Florida did so much better?" people. Florida-vs-California looks better because SF is actually a bit of an island in this case.
Precautionary principle gives it a few months of wait time after that research, to ensure it's valid and repeated.
The research is months old on this. It seems pretty valid to me, and to public health agencies issuing guidance.
Also from basic logical principles, if vaccinated then masks don’t do much of anything.
I don’t think you owe anyone your rationale for why you wear a mask, but it’s irrational to expect others to wear masks when they are past the point of usefulness. Or to hold negative opinions of people who don’t wear masks.
If anything, wearing masks using faulty logic is something that should be avoided. As trying to avoid all illogical things.
Your argument from logical principle presupposes that vaccinated people wearing masks is 100% useless. I don't think that's right, eg. wearing a mask isn't 100% useless for protecting yourself, vaccination doesn't provide 100% certainty that you aren't carrying/spreading the virus, and even wearing masks purely performatively may induce unvaccinated people to wear masks. You may be correct in discounting that because of statistical arguments and low probabilities, but at that point you are making some sort of risk/benefit judgement call and not a purely logic-driven conclusion.
Vaccines aren’t 100% effective, so obviously a mask worn by someone who is vaccinated but infected will reduce their ability to infect others.
I think you’re right that I’m arguing about a risk/benefit calculus and that the specific result is that the benefits of masks+vaccines are not high enough to outweigh the costs.
But I think this is driven from the logical basis of how masks work, how vaccines work, public health interventions work, etc.
Many people misunderstand masks and they they are protective for the wearer. Or they think masks give greater protection, etc.
Most people wear a mask in SF because they want to, not because they have to. You are free to not were them if you like, no one is going to stop you .
I wear it and then forget about it, it is lot more hassle to remember to remove in some contexts sometimes that means wearing while driving alone. It doesn't bother me, not sure why people get winded about it.
(And I pretty much am all those things, but I don't expect everyone else in the world to be)
I wonder if they realize how they're proving all the "virtue signaling" critics right.
I have several friends/family members who struggle with anxiety and COVID has been overwhelming for them. One of them (fully vaccinated) said they know the chance of infection after vaccination is less than 0.1%, but it's not a risk they're willing to take. I know their viewpoint isn't rational, but I empathize with it much more than the virtue signalers.
Maybe you don’t live somewhere where the temperature is 30 degree Celsius plus often, at which point wearing a mask is a very different UX to colder weather.
From communication point of view, I do care and want to normalise wearing masks whenever you want. I'm totally using one when I need to go shopping and not feeling great.
Putting on a cloth mask outdoors is like wearing a helmet while driving on the highway.
What percent have mental health issues increased due to less oxytocin from less hugs?
What percent has society gotten worse from people being suspicious of others that perhaps they are infected?
That 0.1% you speak of might have much bigger indirect costs, that you aren’t considering, but others might.
I honestly can't understand this whole obsession with shaming people for wearing masks. Who gives two shits if someone else is wearing a mask? How does it affect you?
It's a little like how Republicans have a tendency to define themselves as in opposition to Democrats.
A respirator mask also filters out pollen, and particulate pollution and fine dust from traffic. Some people used these even before pandemic, when outside in polluted areas. And if you really hate the feeling of insects flying in your mouth when bicycling, a mask prevents that, too.
Some people might simply feel safer by using, even if it's not necessary (yes, perhaps not "rational" but not just as a statement).
Case in point is being in a Lowe's garden center, outdoors, 24 feet away from a guy. He still decides to yell at me to put my mask on even though he was the closest person to me and it was only him and me outside.
I don't mind wearing it either, it is a fashion accessory as my wife makes custom ones and we have a vinyl cutter to express our nerdy side. But, I won't be wearing one just for the sake of social posturing.
There is no safe space on any social media that when the pandemic is mentioned in any way, the discussion devolves into whether masks help or not.
I've heard so much mask discussion since the beginning of the pandemic it's much easier for me to tell someone to wear one and just, pardon the French, STFU about it.
Like it or not there will always be shades of grey and discussion and nuance. Trying to ignore that is how you get extremism and identity politics. If you're tired of talking about something - don't talk about it. But oversimplifying and becoming absolutist is dangerous.
OP mentioned masks and homeless. This sub-thread has 5 comments about homelessness in San Francisco, and 69 comments about masks, and it's far more interesting trying to understand the homelessness situation in SF, which is absolutely bonkers IMO, than the same old hot air talk.
First we had the COVID experts and/or denialists, now we have the mask sceptics. I really can do without that.
In Britain, a lot of my friends got upset about Brexit and Election Results and said things like 'we told them not to vote for..., then we told them again to vote for...' - people do not like being told what to do. You gotta win hearts and minds. Sure, a lot of the more vocal ones are a lost cause best left to their own demise - but it's still worth it for most.
So following your logic that someone has to wear mask and STFU just because you decided so? Sorry to say that but we are not in dystopia yet luckily and you can tell _yourself_ what to do, but STFU about what other people have to.
Do whatever you (not you in particular) want, just quit moaning about it. It's as interesting as discussing political affiliations.
As a matter of fact, it is. Not particularly about your hearing of course, but about expressing everything, even things you may consider as BS. You can be wrong, aren't you?
> Do whatever you (not you in particular) want, just quit moaning about it
Couldn't agree more here, but this statement is contradictory to the one you've made before. Glad you changed your mind.
I know of no studies which suggest that mask wearing is a health risk, and plenty that suggest it's a health benefit.
I'm not frustrated or outraged trying to control others, it's just more convenient.
You could say the same about people who get offended over others wearing masks in situations where it dont affect them at all.
Like, someone wearing it in car or when exercising alone outside. It does not affect you in any way. Those people dont jump out of their cars to complain about what you wear. They are silently driving somewhere, ignoring you. I cant really think of situation where other people wearing masks affect me.
But now mask wearing is some sort of way of displaying that you are a good person. It’s also a way for frustrated people who want to control others and be outraged to be able to vent their frustration at other people, in a socially acceptable way.
It’s not good. And I say this as someone who’s worn a mask for a year now. I’m not against them. But they’re not being worn for rational reasons any more.