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Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by JshWright on Saturday May 15, 2021 @12:54PM (#27166841)
"Deserves" is a pretty loaded word there...
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by polartx on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:13PM (#27166997)
I’m not sure I get your meaning? “Deserve” is a consequence of action, whether it’s a reward or punishment depends on the action. The scope of the consequence is usually clearly defined, and a person or group is empowered with delivering that consequence (reward or punishment). So just as “injustice” exists when someone deserves a reward, (some consequence predicated on their actions), but does not receive it, the same must also exist where someone deserves a punishment but does not receive it.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by tgflynn on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:38PM (#27167237)
In a democracy what such an action "deserves" is decided by the people and the people are not of one mind on what a person like this "deserves". It seems quite likely that in a different jurisdiction or at a different time a much lighter sentence would have been imposed for this crime.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by aksss on Saturday May 15, 2021 @02:04PM (#27167456)
Perhaps worth pointing out for general awareness that trial by jury has nothing to do with democracy, per se. Not all democracies do it, and it was (is) a pretty unique thing about the American system of checks and balances at the time it was enshrined in the sixth and seventh Amendments of our Constitution. Jury trials can exist with or without democracy.

To your point about different time and place, yes, but that’s the system: the jury you get, absent a mistrial, is the jury you get and their opinion is what decides what you deserve by definition (absent new evidence, appeals, etc, within the confines of sentencing regulation, etc.).

Perhaps what you’re after is that there’s no universally objective standard of what a person deserves for their actions, given all the myriad influences and conditions that lead to a particular moment in a person’s life, and which may lessen that persons agency. Therefore the judgement of society is imperfect in the sense that it cannot adequately grasp all these attributes, and may give attributes differing weight based on something as small as whether their eggs were over cooked that morning. So for a person to use the word “deserves” with authority is flawed because a person or people cannot render a perfectly objective judgement.

I think you’ll find that this is an argument as old as time, but whether by birth or immigration, people living in a system operate by its rules, and the word “deserve” reflects the authority of a society to bring down punishment on scofflaws. Like when I tell you something is “cold” we need not debate the true principle of what cold means, you assume to context. So should you assume context for the word “deserves”. Society has never achieved perfection in balancing agency and justice but herein lies a predictable truism - if you run around with a band stabbing others so severely that some die and by luck some don’t, society will determine ya dun f’d up.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by dragonwriter on Saturday May 15, 2021 @02:09PM (#27167498)
> Perhaps worth pointing out for general awareness that trial by jury has nothing to do with democracy, per se. Not all democracies do it, and it was (is) a pretty unique thing about the American system of checks and balances at the time it was enshrined in the sixth and seventh Amendments of our Constitution.

It was adopted directly from the British system; Americans had some recent experience with and anger about being subjected to fairly novel (at least in their breadth of application in the colonies) exceptions to the norm of trial by jury and the guarantee reflected a reaction against that experience, but trial by jury wasn’t an American innovation.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by aksss on Saturday May 15, 2021 @04:11PM (#27168560)
Comment you’re replying to never said trial by jury was an American innovation. Simply that it was pretty unique at the time to have that right enshrined in the country’s constitution, and that the right is not a requisite feature of democracies. For instance, the right to a jury trial for serious crimes in England has existed longer than England could seriously call itself a democracy.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by dragonwriter on Saturday May 15, 2021 @04:36PM (#27168765)
> Simply that it was pretty unique at the time to have that right enshrined in the country’s constitution

Having a set, non-nebulous constitution at all, was unique but the claim that trial by jury “ a pretty unique thing about the American system of checks and balances” is false, it was a well-established basic right in the common law system and the deprivation of it in the colonial administration was a fundamental grievance of the American independence movement not because they had some novel ideas about basic right but because they sought it as a deprivation of the rights they saw themselves entitled to in the British common law tradition.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by aksss on Sunday May 16, 2021 @12:49AM (#27171303)
No, you introduced the question of innovation, which was never contained in my statement. Now you are limiting the statement to a comparison with England proper (for they did in fact suppress the right in their colonies), which was also never in my statement, even implicitly. These are called strawmen.

How was France doing with TbJ? How about Japan? China? Russia? Shall we go through the list of countries in the late 18th century to do this by hand? Tally them up and see how many had a guaranteed right to TbJ for criminal offenses by their citizens?

No, the statement I made holds, and you’ll find that by looking at how other countries adjudicated criminal offenses at the time (not just England). Guaranteed TbJ was the exception, not the rule.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by tgflynn on Saturday May 15, 2021 @02:21PM (#27167596)
I wasn't referring specifically to juries. The ranges of punishments that are prescribed for crimes are done so by democratically elected legislatures in most modern nations, including the US, though judges and juries do have varying degrees of discretion in the matter.

My main point is that in a democracy one shouldn't take the law that exists in a particular place and time as some absolute that cannot be questioned because those laws can and do change through political action, as has recently been happening with drug laws and mandatory sentences for drug crimes.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by aksss on Saturday May 15, 2021 @02:29PM (#27167659)
Murdering multiple people will always be highly unpopular, particularly in the local community where it happens and when it happens, but I take your point.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by lazyasciiart on Saturday May 15, 2021 @04:31PM (#27168718)
Would you use the word "deserves" to describe a child hanged for stealing food, which was an expected legal penalty in some times and places? To most people it carries the connotation that the speaker agrees with the appropriateness of the penalty.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by iratewizard on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:00PM (#27166904)
A life sentence for participating in a cold-blooded murder spree is something I imagine most members of society would see as just.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by Arainach on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:08PM (#27166956)
For a mentally capable adult, perhaps. We have plenty of research to show that the brains of juveniles are wired differently. That doesn't mean no punishment, but it means that a life sentence is excessive and rehabilitation should be tried.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by iratewizard on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:20PM (#27167064)
The overwhelming majority of juveniles do not commit cold-blooded murder like this. Do you believe that this person is not a psychopath? Has any real ground been broken to take violent psychopaths and "cure" their condition? I've seen no evidence of this, and I don't see rehabilitation as anything more than a tool that is useful in certain circumstances.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by alogray on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:59PM (#27167411)
Most of us on here are in tech rather than psychiatry and not fit to make a call on whether someone is a psycopath, especially from a single article about them that doesn’t really focus on their mental state.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by polartx on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:33PM (#27167197)
When you think about it, there was enough complex decisions taking place to point towards a developed (albeit devoid of conscience) mind in control.

A childs reasoning would more likely follow this kind of path: Child wants alcohol->storekeeper has alcohol->child capable of coercion by force (ie stabbing)—>child gets alcohol from storekeeper

However, instead he did this: Young man wants alcohol->storekeeper has alcohol—>alcohol costs money that young man does not have—>innocent passerby’s have money—> young man capable of coercion by force (ie stabbing)—>young man stabs innocent passerby’s for their money—>Evaluate whether amount stolen is enough for alcohol, if not, repeat previous steps, if so—->young man gets alcohol from storekeeper

Good decisions are not proof of brain development, however complex ones are. Given the evidence I would say he was rightly judged as an adult.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by daenz on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:38PM (#27167239)
You make a good point, but I think there is a simpler argument for why he was rightfully tried as an adult: murder is an adult action.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by alogray on Saturday May 15, 2021 @02:07PM (#27167480)
Are there crimes that are “juvenile actions”? Would adults who commit them be tried as juveniles given that it is a juvenile action?
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by mekkkkkk on Saturday May 15, 2021 @03:26PM (#27168114)
IIRC, empathy isnt fully developed until the early twenties. Even if you are capable of having sophisticated trains of thoughts you might not realize the scope of consequences from your actions.

Life without parole seems like it should be reserved for those who are beyond saving. Not sure a 15 year old boy would classify as such. It all depends on your view of retribution vs rehabilitation though.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by thrwhizzle on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:22PM (#27167081)
He went on a robbing and stabbing spree that ended up with six critical injuries and two deaths.

Maybe you don’t think he deserves his punishment. I certainly do. The type of person who would go on a stabbing spree for wine money is not the kind of person who has any place in society I want to live.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by daenz on Saturday May 15, 2021 @04:11PM (#27168562)
Furthermore, if this is the type of thing that someone has to "learn" not to do at 15, what other horrible things do they still need to learn not to do? It is not worth having these people live around others while they learn these lessons at the cost of innocents around them.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by systemvoltage on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:15PM (#27167015)
So, "Deserves" still applies here, just less.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by taneq on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:34PM (#27167204)
Aww he's just a kid... no need to get upset about him stabbing a bunch of people to death now is there?
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by alogray on Saturday May 15, 2021 @01:56PM (#27167377)
That is not what the person you replied to what the person you replied to said and you know that.

Intentionally misconstruing what others say is something best left for Reddit.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by MomoXenosaga on Saturday May 15, 2021 @02:36PM (#27167724)
Society is rarely for lower sentences.

I find that leftist wokes tend to live in their own bubble. They are painfully reminded of it when there is a survey about the death penalty. Luckily the justice system doesn't operate on the whims of the people like in that story of Jesus' trial.

Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by mekkkkkk on Saturday May 15, 2021 @03:31PM (#27168159)
Historically, "society" has been huge fans of corporal punishment, elaborate executions and torture. Not sure you wanna go down that road, buddy.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by LordDragonfang on Saturday May 15, 2021 @03:47PM (#27168333)
Not to mention slavery, lynchings, and the consequence-free murder of gender and sexual minorities. There are many things that are today considered barbaric that were once popular, and this is almost certainly a trend that will extend into the future.
Re:Joe Ligon: America's 'longest juvenile lifer' on 68 years... by JshWright on Saturday May 15, 2021 @05:18PM (#27169118)
lol, I work as a paramedic. How many fatal stabbings have you been to? Especially ones where it was your job to try to save the victims life? Unless your number is higher than mine, save your "woke leftist bubble" argument.

My position is that no 15 year old deserves a life sentence _without parole_. Are there 15 year olds who commit crimes that truly reflect their irredeemable nature? Perhaps. I expect they are in the minority though, and that's the whole point of a parole board (as flawed a system as that is).