News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:15AM (#27143034)
Framework founder here. Happy to answer any questions anyone has on the product!
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by willtim on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:29AM (#27143222)
This is a noble effort and you can certainly take the moral high-ground over companies like Apple. However, often the problem is not only whether parts are replaceable but also availability of spares. For example, my 2016 X1 Carbon needs a new battery and it is easily user-replaceable, yet Lenovo no longer make or sell them. How can you make sure that parts are available, especially if your suppliers stop making them?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:34AM (#27143287)
We're committing to making compatible parts available. Part of how we're doing this is continuing to use this design and architecture going forward for the foreseeable future. This means that as we continue to refresh the specs each year, modules like the battery, display, and others will remain cross-compatible. This makes it easier for us to keep suppliers bought in for the long-haul.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by dflock on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:59PM (#27146642)
How long is long?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by frmwklptpq on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:39PM (#27146386)
Special shout-out and thanks regarding:

> To maximize eye comfort, we use a DC mode backlight controller instead of a PWM one that can cause visible flickering

I hope this still stands, and it uses true DC dimming. If so, thank you so much!

These days it is hard to find non-PWM laptops even in premium segment.

Even high-frequency PWM is not great for eyestrain, so DC dimming is really appreciated! Some manufacturers go as low as 250HZ.

p.s.

If anyone wants to check if your display has PWM:

0. All OLED screens utilize PWM. They are terrible to view in low light environment. This means that all new phones and OLED laptops are terrible for night reading, don't do it! If you are curious about headaches after extensive screen time, guess no more.

1. For LCD laptops, however, set display brightness at 10% (can try different settings in low range, too)

2. Open some bright content (e.g. blank white page) and go to some completely dark room.

3. Using phone camera's preview screen, set it to photo mode and play with different settings of exposure (in pro/advanced settings) while pointing at the screen: try 1/8000, 1/250, etc. Also try slow-motion capture of the screen. High-frequency PWM (new Mac laptops) is quite bad, but hard to detect without special equipment, but still can easily put eyestrain. Low frequency PWM is much easier to detect with just a phone camera.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by LawnGnome on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:15PM (#27144652)
Maybe more feedback than questions, although if there are roadmap items that would address these it'd be good to know! I'm really excited about this — besides repairability, I think the USB-C expansion cards are great, and a really neat solution to a tricky problem. I love the idea of never having to carry a USB-C dongle ever again, particularly when travelling.

The blocker that is stopping me ordering this today (besides being in Canada) is:

1. The display. I've spent the last several years using laptops with higher resolution displays (either Macbook Pros or, more recently, a 4k Dell XPS 13), and honestly, I'm not going back. It's a shame that the one thing that doesn't seem to be upgradeable right now is the screen configuration. (I realise that the Framework's display isn't exactly low-res, but it feels like it's going to be in an uncanny valley of not quite HiDPI/Retina.)

Beyond that, other things I wish were different (or at least clearer), but which aren't blockers:

1. Like other commenters, I don't use Windows, and I don't particularly want to pay for a Windows licence. 2. There's no mention I can see on the product page of how many external displays are supported, and in what configurations, and that's important to me. 3. I'd probably be more comfortable if some late pre-production units had made it to independent reviewers for judging things like battery life and the display. (I'd love to see an Anandtech breakdown of a Framework!)

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:34PM (#27144865)
We're pretty happy with the display. At a little over 200 PPI, it is basically just over the edge of "retina" where pixels aren't visible at normal viewing distance, while being less power-hungry than a 4k panel.

We offer the DIY Edition without Windows pre-installed, and will be publishing compatibility reports for popular Linux distros.

With Intel 11th Gen CPUs, the Framework Laptop handles up to four simultaneous displays (which can be 4x external displays if you turn off the internal one).

We'll be making review units available before we start shipping products out.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by LawnGnome on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:52PM (#27145076)
I really appreciate the response. Thanks!
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by skratlo on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:54PM (#27145090)
The display is fine, 4k / retina is not practical in any way, it's just marketing.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by skrtskrt on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:24PM (#27145465)
Do we have to do this on every thread about laptops?

Just because you don't care about 4K or retina doesn't mean it's marketing juju. People obviously find value in it.

I use 2k and 4k screens with scaling on, and it makes text and edges very clear and smooth. It reduces my eye strain significantly. Lower res than 2k is very visibly fuzzy.

It's fine if you don't value that, but to act like it's "not practical in any way" is plainly wrong.

There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by yjftsjthsd-h on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:52PM (#27147294)
As long as we can also stop claiming that a machine is automatically unusable because it has a slightly lower resolution, sure. People seem oddly convinced that only their preferred resolution / pixel density is valid in both directions.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by leetcrew on Thursday May 13, 2021 @07:24PM (#27148766)
you realize "2K" is just 1080p, right? it's hard to find a lower resolution than 1080p in 2021 unless you go digging deep in the bargain bin. to my eyes, 1080p is more than enough for a 13" display, but possibly insufficient for 15"+. ymmv, of course.

> There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.

people get frustrated when they can't find a SKU with their preferred feature set. 4K is not without its drawbacks (dramatically increased power consumption and lackluster hidpi support in some software). imo, 1440p is a much more reasonable upgrade for most laptop sizes, but it seems that most models only offer 1080p and 4K SKUs. sometimes you can't get the high end parts without also getting a 4K panel.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by pkulak on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:10PM (#27146768)
It matters because you want to scale in integer amounts. So 110 dpi is fine. 220 too. Even 330. So it's not just higher number better, but the right number better.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by myself248 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:53AM (#27143526)
What's the UEFI / secure boot situation like? Say someone's been considering a Purism machine, how does the Framework compare?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Friday May 14, 2021 @12:04AM (#27150566)
It's complicated. We have moving to an open BIOS on our roadmap (and doing so fits our mission really well), but we prioritized getting high quality, stable hardware out for this first iteration.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by luke2m on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:14PM (#27144638)
Would like to know this.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by SuchAnonMuchWow on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:15PM (#27144654)
Thank you very much for what you build. It's amazing, and will be the perfect replacement for my aging laptop.

The only thing missing for me is an ethernet port (which I need to connect to the internal network at work). Do you have any plan to add it as an extension card ? If no, any technical reasons why not ?

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:27PM (#27144776)
Thanks! We are developing an Ethernet Expansion Card. Due to the size of the receptacle and magnetics required, it'll bump out rather than being flush like the other cards, but still more convenient than an external dongle.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by motiejus on Friday May 14, 2021 @02:24AM (#27151336)
Same here, I am looking for something that does have rj45.

Some dell latitude laptops have a connector that "packs" itself, making it slim enough to be buit-in, without bumps. Is this an option for you folks?

How much do you think it will bump out? Will the laptop be stable on an even surface?

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by kevinkeller on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:56PM (#27148528)
Is it possible to run the laptop directly off AC power, bypassing the battery?

Alternatively, is it possible to cap the battery charging at, say, 60-80%?

Since one of the key aspects of the laptop is the longevity and serviceability of the hardware, I am curious how the battery health can be managed.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Friday May 14, 2021 @12:06AM (#27150574)
It is! You can actually unplug or take out the battery and still be able to run the system. Configurable charge limits is on our firmware roadmap, though unlikely to be available at launch time.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by fyrn- on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:20PM (#27144704)
Why go with an intel plastform right now when AMD laptops CPU are lapping intel ones for heavily multithreaded work like compiling? I suspect for developers which probably represent a larger than normal segment of your potential customers, that AMD cpus would have been the better choice for battery life and multithread?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by fomine3 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @08:24PM (#27149206)
Unlike other market offering by Intel, Tiger Lake is good choice especially for lightweight mobile laptop.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by MaxBarraclough on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:26PM (#27144772)
Similar to the question from myself248:

Does it run on Free Software? Put another way, what would the FSF Respects Your Freedom programme [0] make of it? How does it compare to the Purism Librem machines?

[0] https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by MaxBarraclough on Friday May 14, 2021 @10:23AM (#27154649)
An update for anyone reading: looking at [0], they're planning on moving to an open BIOS, but it's not top priority right now.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27150566

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by robotnikman on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:54AM (#27143561)
Any plans in the future to include a discrete GPU option?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:18PM (#27145410)
We likely won't within this 13.5" form factor, since even with a discrete GPU there would be some problematic thermal budget tradeoffs with the CPU. GPU modularity is definitely a compelling area though!
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by m463 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:16PM (#27144658)
When Apple came out with flat keyboards (~2007/2008?) the entire industry copied the trend.

The tops of the keys are flat, giving very little "context" to your fingers for accurate typing. It is hard to find the center or edges of the keys, which would be easier on sculpted keys which are concave and conform to your fingers.

Do manufacturers even make keyboards like that for laptops anymore?

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:16PM (#27145374)
We put a lot of effort into great keyboard feel on the Framework laptop, both in terms of key travel (1.5mm) and key shape. There are limits to what you can do in a 15.85mm thick machine, but we stack up well compared to most other thin and light notebooks on keyboard quality.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by fomine3 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @08:26PM (#27149219)
ThinkPad?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by m463 on Friday May 14, 2021 @01:54PM (#27157437)
coincidentally I was reading this article yesterday:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/X1-Carbon-Gen-9-Lenovo-has-to-...

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by dmayle on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:57PM (#27146607)
Hi!

I've got two questions about input:

1. Will there be an ISO option for the keyboard layout? (To support non-US layouts, and for those who aren't familiar, just changing the key mapping isn't sufficient, ISO has an extra key and a different shape on the enter key)

2. Any plans to support Sensel touchpads? The tech is really amazing (I've heard the latest described as better than a macbook)

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:20PM (#27146887)
Yes, we have some photos on the website currently showing ANSI and ISO keyboard geometry. As we continue to add more keyboard languages, there will be both ANSI and ISO ones depending on the language (and JIS for Japan).

The touchpad is replaceable, though we don't currently have plans for alternate types.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by ssivark on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:21AM (#27143114)
Hi, thanks for hanging around; the idea seems exciting! A few questions (likely FAQs):

1. How much thicker & heavier is this laptop than similar screen size MacBook Pro and Thinkpads? (Is the battery life comparable?)

2. Is there soldered-on RAM and/or expansion slots?

3. Can this run linux without any hitch?

——

PS: Website seems to be down for now.

> Framework is undergoing maintenance right now. Please check back in a few minutes.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:36AM (#27143311)
The website is back up!

We're at almost exactly the same thickness and weight as a MacBook Pro 13-inch, and lighter and thinner than most T-series ThinkPads.

The storage, both memory sockets, and WiFi are socketed for upgradeability, and the entire mainboard is upgradeable too!

We're testing for compatibility with major linux distributions, and expect near complete support (with potentially only the fingerprint reader driver coming in later).

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by bl0b on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:49AM (#27143467)
FYI you probably already know this, but I get a 500 server error attempting to access https://frame.work/products/laptop
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by 6510 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:08PM (#27143766)
its a good problem to have
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by anigbrowl on Thursday May 13, 2021 @03:47PM (#27146487)
Hi, thanks for your availability and a cool product.

I wonder if you plan to make the hardware spec (or parts thereof like the form factor) open source? It's nota deal breaker if you don't, but would be a big plus if you do (although more challenging from a business logic standpoint, but Red Hat seems to have done OK).

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:30PM (#27148310)
I recall reading previous HN thread where they said they were / would permit / encourage others to build compatible component.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Friday May 14, 2021 @12:07AM (#27150577)
Yep, that is right. We're releasing reference CAD and documentation under open licenses for some modules like the Expansion Cards to enable community development.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by GordonS on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:57PM (#27145142)
The lack of upgradability of laptops is a huge problem, especially when so many come with 16GB or even a piddling 8GB of RAM - I'm excited to see you guys actually shipping!

Do you have any plans to sell in the UK and Europe, through a distributor or otherwise?

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:09PM (#27145297)
Yes! We'll be selling directly to consumers in several countries in Europe (and UK) and Asia before the end of the year.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by questionableans on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:00PM (#27144480)
Have you tested the laptop’s materials for offgassing?

I’ve had problems with offgassing odors that never seem to go away on multiple monitors, MacBooks and an iPad in recent years. This leads to headaches that makes it impossible to use the machines for more than a few minutes, even with good room ventilation.

It would be great to buy a laptop that is known to be low offgassing. I was wondering if a Framework laptop would have less glue and could be more effective offgassed in a shed by disassembling the components and ventilating.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by alisonkisk on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:23PM (#27145451)
What do you suspect is the chemical that is new and widespread?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by questionableans on Thursday May 13, 2021 @08:41PM (#27149302)
I doubt it’s just one chemical, but various kinds of plastics and adhesives, and possibly some electronic components are all likely contributors. For example, on the 8th gen. iPad, the keyboard connector is surprisingly smelly.

Heat increases the rate of offgassing, so a medium amount of heat in well power managed devices can draw out the time for which there is noticeable offgassing for years. I have found if you can burn-in a computer or TV with heavy load (and consequently heat) for say a month or two, that usually takes care of it. But some mobile devices (especially fanless ones) are “too good” at thermal management, making this difficult. And even for devices with fans, you want to run them in a clean environment so you don’t prematurely fill the fans up with dust or worse.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by skratlo on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:55PM (#27145118)
Why did you choose Intel over AMD?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by an_opabinia on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:11PM (#27143816)
In what country are the laptops manufactured?

Which three parts in a laptop have the highest failure rate, and what are those rates?

What I can’t wrap my head around is, a consumer that feels strongly about repairing laptops themselves, for clearly non-economic reasons, but would balk at the cost of a laptop manufactured in the West, which is 100% of the labor the day the laptop ships, because then the computer would cost 3 times as much.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:20PM (#27143934)
We manufacture subassemblies and most modules in China with final assembly in Taiwan.

In typical consumer notebooks, batteries, hinges, ports, and keyboards would be parts that wear out over time. We've designed the Framework Laptop to make each of those easy to swap as needed.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by samstave on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:46PM (#27144998)
Do you have an exploded diagram of all the individual parts?
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:11PM (#27145322)
We'll be publishing repair guides showing all the parts and assembly steps. In the meantime, you can check out some of the images that show modules: https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by samstave on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:36PM (#27145610)
Dopes.

The QR Code in the transparency section doesnt work:

https://i.imgur.com/TjfcWOP.png

"page doesnt exist"

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:53PM (#27145845)
Yes... good catch. We wondered if people would start scanning that image. That will redirect into our product pages and repair guides before we start shipping units out.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by Matrixik on Friday May 14, 2021 @01:16PM (#27156849)
Any plans for display with at least 99% Adobe RGB (for working with pictures color grading)? Good uniform brightness would also be nice. It doesn't need to be as good as Eizo/Nec, but something on the level of BenQ PhotoVue would be nice.

And if it supported hardware calibration that would be on completely another level.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by zipityzi on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:09PM (#27143784)
Thank you so much for starting this project and hopefully long-term investment. Incredibly refreshing.

The site is down for the moment. What is the situation about warranty?

Do you plan to offer multi-year options? I’m all for repairing my own laptop, but if there is an option to pay upfront for some peace of mind on at least the parts, I’d bite.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:11PM (#27143808)
We offer a pretty standard 1-year limited warranty. Extended warranties are something we are exploring, but are not available yet.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by zipityzi on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:27PM (#27144061)
Thank you for the reply. Great to hear it's on Framework's radar.

While the reparability helps (as I'm used to even $800 laptops calling for $300 screens + webcam + Wi-Fi antenna), if it's profitable for Framework, it'd be an instant buy here.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by pkulak on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:04PM (#27146701)
That resolution is so close to 2X! Why not just a little bit denser so that desktops can integer scale instead of 1.8x?

EDIT: Just did the math and your screen is 200dpi... which is very close to the 220 or so I'm used to on high-dpi, 13" screens. Maybe close enough that it won't matter?

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by dilippkumar on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:10PM (#27143802)
Congratulations on your launch!

How do you track quality during development, production, product planning and polling for customer satisfaction?

Can you share some thoughts on the current state of quality assurance in the industry in general? Is this an area for product differentiation?

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:56PM (#27145123)
We have both Quality and Customer Experience teams to span quality from the sub-suppliers and manufacturing through to customers, so that we can close the loop on any field issues.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by foodstances on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:27AM (#27143200)
What was the point of signing up for pre-order emails and following your launch if it was going to be announced everywhere at the same time? Your website is down and it was impossible to complete a pre-order checkout because of all the errors.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Friday May 14, 2021 @12:09AM (#27150597)
Sorry for the go-live shakiness. The website is up and running solidly now. We sent out the email to the mailing list this morning with the intent of letting folks get in and order as the news started to trickle out. In reality though, there was an immediate, massive influx of traffic (in part from HN) that brought down the website. Lessons learned for the future.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by simon_weber on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:23PM (#27143991)
Any idea when reviewers will get their hands on it? It'd be nice to have some reviews prior to pre-orders going out.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @12:29PM (#27144098)
Definitely! We'll be sending out review units before we start shipping out to customers.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by uncletaco on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:26AM (#27143183)
When is the website coming back up
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:27AM (#27143209)
Back up now! We upgraded some infrastructure quickly to handle the massive influx of visitors.
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by zipityzi on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:52AM (#27143518)
I think it’s down again if you click the configurations. Home page is sometimes up, but that’s also down some of the time.

“ 500 Internal Server Error If you are the administrator of this website, then please read this web application's log file and/or the web server's log file to find out what went wrong.”

The hug of death.

Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by rpdillon on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:53AM (#27143533)
Got all the way to checkout, but couldn't order. I'll keep checking back!
Re:Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999 by nrp on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:56AM (#27143601)
Thanks for your patience! We're upgrading infrastructure further, but the website is very much still struggling under the load. On that note, we're hiring a Backend Engineer if anyone is interested! https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...