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Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by WillPostForFood on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @05:30PM (#27123774)
The risk isn’t war between China and the US, but China and Taiwan, which China has 100% chance of winning. That then makes the the US extremely dependent on China for semiconductor supply.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by randmeerkat on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @05:39PM (#27123874)
You’re making the assumption that the U.S. would just let China attack Taiwan unchallenged. There’s an enormous risk of war between China and the U.S., if China invaded Taiwan.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by voidfunc on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:30PM (#27124420)
10 years ago I would agree without challenge that the US would defend Taiwan if necessary. Less sure about that these days.

Even if we would go to war, its probably a war we would prefer not to have to fight even if the weapons used stay conventional. It's the kind of situation that changes the course of history in a big way for the loser.

Nobody wants to be the Spanish after the defeat of the Armada of the 21st century.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by threeseed on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:46PM (#27124567)
US world order centres around its word.

If allies can't depend on US to defend them then it opens up all sorts of possibilities none of which are in the best interests of the US or those that value democracy.

For example closest allies like Australia for example would have no choice but to capitulate and bow down to China's whims. This would include ending the Five Eyes security arrangement and allowing Huawei to operate the 5G backbone infrastructure.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by chii on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:02AM (#27126455)
> US world order centres around its word.

Crimea begs to differ...

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by threeseed on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:34PM (#27124455)
The idea that China has a 100% chance of winning is laughable and plain wrong.

There are so many dynamics involved e.g. Japan needing to defend the Senkaku Islands, India, UK and EU member states being involved and the fact that you an increasingly united front within APAC.

Also China's military is a lot of smoke and mirrors. They simply can't match the F-22 and F-35 in the air or the Ford class aircraft carriers in the sea. And US is looking to build a missile defence system on Guam to prevent long range attacks.

There are simply too many factors in play to give any percentage of winning.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by WillPostForFood on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:43PM (#27124532)
The US hasn't even committed to defending Taiwan. I doubt the US would militarily intervene. The risk of escalation is too high. If China is committed to taking it, they will get it. The response would be economic, and I'm not confident enough of the world cares, or isn't already beholden to China for it to matter.

>Ford class aircraft carriers

Isn't there only one Ford class carrier? And it is still not fully ready, and it is in the Atlantic, so at this point is not ready to play a part in any South China Sea conflict.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by threeseed on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:57PM (#27124672)
At this point there is very little economic sanctions US could impose on China that Trump didn't already either try or talk about. And anything with teeth will never work whilst US companies build everything in China. So for me a short military dispute is more likely.

No one is expecting war this year. There will be 3 Ford Class carriers by 2030 and 5 by 2040. As well as the Nimitz class which are still better than what China has today.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by RhodoGSA on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @08:30PM (#27125300)
China has too much USD denominated debt to last against a protracted trade war.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by chii on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:01AM (#27126445)
That's not really true - china uses the USD they own to peg the RMB to enhance their export.

In times of war, this USD debt is going to be a liability for china, since the US can just refuse to repay it (and after all, what else is china going to do about? Declare war again?).

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by RhodoGSA on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:46PM (#27133737)
https://www.lynalden.com/global-dollar-short-squeeze/

Kind of explains the problems with China having too much USD debt. Even without times of war.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:56PM (#27125090)
> At this point there is very little economic sanctions US could impose on China that Trump didn't already either try or talk about. And anything with teeth will never work whilst US companies build everything in China.

This is a contradiction. It leaves open the possibility of sanctions sufficient to induce US companies to stop building everything in China.

In the long term the cost of this is negligible or produces a net benefit. Maybe some things cost more if it would have been cheaper to make them in China, but that isn't necessarily true outside of China's cross-subsidies which you're then still paying for, and even if they do you get the countervailing economic benefit of repatriating some of the production. (It's also plausible that sanctions on China would move production to places like Mexico and Brazil which are still cheaper than the US, but then you're back to no significant long-term cost increase and a benefit from diversifying production.)

The main cost is in the short term, because things would cost more. But they would cost more by the amount of the tariffs. Which go to the government, which it can then give back to the domestic population in various ways. Which could produce a domestic benefit, if China ends up paying any of the tariffs. If there is a $1 import tariff which pays for a $1 tax reduction for the middle class, but the tariff is paid $0.75 by the domestic buyer and $0.25 by the foreign manufacturer, you just transferred $0.25 to the domestic population.

The only way you even get a short-term domestic cost is if manufacturing actually does start moving out of China. Because then you have a $1 tariff which causes people to be willing to pay $0.25 more for a product made in Ohio or Mexico. Which costs you the $0.25 and then you don't get the $1 to offset domestic taxes. But it costs China $5, i.e. the full value of the sale and not just the amount of the tariff or the marginal cost of manufacturing it elsewhere. It costs them more than it costs the US. Which gives the US more negotiating leverage to get whatever concessions they want.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by simonblack on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @08:14PM (#27125212)
Don't make the same mistake of under-estimating China in 2021, that the US made of underestimating Japan in 1941.

To see the mind-set of the US/Europeans in the 1940s, take the time to watch the miniseries "The Singapore Grip". The British in particular were very dismissive of the Japanese. They sent a whole two(!) battleships off to destroy the Japanese invasion fleet. The Japanese polished them off in about an hour and a half. [I see that moment as the point when the whole British Empire died. But it took the British another 15 years to recognise that death.]

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by hadlock on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:07AM (#27128906)
China has been testing their recently-deployed DF-21 and DF-26 "aircraft-carrier killer" missiles. They're basically non-nuclear ICBMs that come straight down, from above, a battleship, dead center, at Mach 2+. It's basically a 4,000 mile hole punch for warships. The only reason nobody's really talking about them yet is because they're ambiguously running afoul of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, which we're no longer part of. Also, they haven't actually been used in combat. But presumably they have enough to sink our navy twice over, and are shipped in a standard 40' shipping container.

Getting in a naval battle with China may likely someday become "getting in a land war with Russia".

> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3098972/chi...

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by _-david-_ on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @05:39PM (#27123862)
China only has 100% chance of winning in a war with Taiwan if the west and allies do not join.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by smithza on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @05:46PM (#27123968)
From some commentaries I read, China has a near 100% chance of winning in war with Taiwan even if US and allies join. This is mostly to do with mainland China's relative proximity to Taiwan and the few relative number of air bases US has on Japan and how far away Hawaii is.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by threeseed on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:41PM (#27124506)
You do know that there is the concept of carrier strike groups which involve you putting a bunch of planes on an aircraft carrier and sailing it to the region. Just like UK's HMS Queen Elizabeth is doing as we speak.

Also there are US air bases in Phillipines, Singapore, South Korea, Australia, Guam etc. This is going to be a regional conflict not just between US and China.

Again. Anyone who says there is a 100% chance of winning is delusional and ignores the history of war on this planet.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by hadlock on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:11AM (#27128944)
China's DF-21/DF-26, assuming they work half as good as they're claiming, will likely largely nullify the advantages of carrier strike groups.

Being able to sink any hostile warship within 2000 miles of the Spratly Islands is a significant deterrent to external military intervention in the region.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by SkyMarshal on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @08:41PM (#27125364)
Carriers are dead, thanks to hypersonic missiles. As carriers obsoleted battleships in WWII, hypersonics have obsoleted carriers in the 21st century.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by _-david-_ on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:04PM (#27124161)
Wars are not single battles. If China were to attack (and capture) Taiwan the war would not just be over. The West could attack mainland China and attempt to retake Taiwan.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by voidfunc on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:32PM (#27124434)
Attacking mainland China seems like a great way to end up in a very bad Nuclear conflict.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by Arrath on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:54PM (#27125074)
China declared decades ago that they follow a No First Use policy in regards to nuclear weapons.

Of course, whether that holds true if boots land on their soil, who knows.

Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by chii on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:04AM (#27126467)
declarations are pointless, but the US is unlikely to put boots on land in china. The last Korean war, the US decided not to do it (invade into chinese territory), and china was much weaker back then.
Re:Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production by christkv on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:57PM (#27124680)
To take Taiwan China will need air supremacy as well as naval supremacy lack of either one will make it close to impossible. Think about what it took to do d day possible and that was a much shorter crossing and the combined resources of the allies with full air and naval supremacy.