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Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by crote on Sunday May 09, 2021 @01:00PM (#27097593)
I'm very loosely involved in the highly customized keyboard business, think runs of a couple hundred units.

One vendor is having trouble finding any chip to design for. The software stack supports a couple of dozen STM32 chip series, but none of them are even remotely available. I've seen a lead time of over 11 months. Before COVID, pretty much every single chip was in stock almost all of the time.

Respinning a board isn't too difficult, but good luck doing that if there's no chip to respin it for.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by structural on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:28PM (#27098380)
Yep, we're hearing 52week lead times on pretty much all microcontrollers at the moment, with more esoteric parts being... somewhat more than that.

A year ago you could buy 10k+ units of most common parts -- in stock -- from each of the major distributors.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by baybal2 on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:44PM (#27098529)
> Respinning a board isn't too difficult, but good luck doing that if there's no chip to respin it for.

Some people hoard toilet paper, some people hoard baby formula, some people hoard Shanghai apartments, some people hoard microchips...

Got burned with same STM32s recently. A purchaser been shopping parts, and ordered a given model of MCU by muscle memory. The price has moved one zero overnight, and we ran for quite a sum.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by freeopinion on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:57PM (#27098647)
Some people fail to stock toilet people, some people fail to stock chip fabs.
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by neltnerb on Sunday May 09, 2021 @02:56PM (#27098641)
I don't doubt it, in the article the dog washing company specifically said that their design firm already had a solution that just required new PCBs.

That is not sympathetic, that's very normal.

What you're describing is sympathetic and hard to deal with. Their example was lucky about it and still ended up somehow quoted in the story.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by exmadscientist on Sunday May 09, 2021 @05:24PM (#27099934)
STM32 isn't the only Cortex-M microcontroller series in the world, you know. They're popular because they're pretty decent, low cost, have good dev boards and offer a wide variety of parts.

However, their software sucks (okay, so do all of the other options...), their peripherals are not as good as some of the other options (in particular I'm thinking of peripheral clock trees when I say this, among other things), and their availability is the _worst_.

Seriously, unless you're big enough that ST management actually knows your name, expect to have sudden availability issues with the STM32. This has been true for the last decade. It will remain true. (Many of these availability problems start at ST's wafer fab, so they're not shared by the other vendors.) I always advise clients who care about such things to consider other vendors.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by baybal2 on Sunday May 09, 2021 @06:08PM (#27100289)
> They're popular because they're pretty decent, low cost, have good dev boards and offer a wide variety of parts.

Now find a single person who can program bare hardware on a short notice on above Arduino level.

The current chip shortage has claimed 6 of our firmware devs, all hired by companies ready to spend just any money for anybody "who can replace that ____ing STM|NXP|Renesas thing"

People downstream in the industry greatly overestimated their knowledge of the industry.

Lots of tech companies around who had zero prior knowledge of embedded development, now jumping on it, and breaking their teeth.

I haven't heard more fabulous questions like "Are there other microcontrollers than Intel, and AMD in the world?" this year than any time before.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by kingsuper20 on Sunday May 09, 2021 @08:30PM (#27101285)
>Now find a single person who can program bare hardware on a short notice on above Arduino level.

Wait, there's real money in that?

Maybe I shouldn't waste my time just doing yard work.

Sidenote: I just asked my wife about parts shortages at her workplace. Evidently you guys are right. I should get out more.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by joezydeco on Monday May 10, 2021 @09:33AM (#27105799)
No, there isn't real money in this. I've been doing it 30 years now and my earnings curve will never match what a webdev gets.

Firmware engineers are the out-of-sight-out-of-mind component in the product development spectrum.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by kingsuper20 on Monday May 10, 2021 @10:55AM (#27106598)
To be fair, nobody's wages were particularly high 30 years ago.

Although the money has been decent, programming complicated devices has spoiled me for one thing..I have just about essentially zero interest in web technologies, products, languages. I've always gotten to work on the sexier version of embedded work and so feel really blessed, it's not all about the lucre.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by the_only_law on Monday May 10, 2021 @10:57AM (#27106624)
Just curious, what’s included in the “sexier” version of embedded work?
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by ksec on Monday May 10, 2021 @01:58PM (#27108860)
>my earnings curve will never match what a webdev gets.

Which is the saddest part of it all.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by baybal2 on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:08AM (#27103753)
Yep, I'd say today is the best opportunity to get a higher paid embedded job than any time before if anybody specifically targets people hiring on urgency.

But a thing to remember is that people currently hiring themselves been likely neglecting their RnD before the crisis hit them.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by kingsuper20 on Monday May 10, 2021 @10:57AM (#27106621)
I have to wonder how many of those gigs are getting an ugly legacy codewad dumped in your lap with a short deadline to add features to somebody's automatic swimming pool cleaning product.
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by neilv on Sunday May 09, 2021 @11:11PM (#27102314)
> The current chip shortage has claimed 6 of our firmware devs, all hired by companies ready to spend just any money for anybody "who can replace that ____ing STM|NXP|Renesas thing"

Condolences on the loss of coworkers.

But this seems interesting to software people who haven't been doing embedded, but who can wrangle C well enough to adapt (quickly?) to embedded constraints and interfaces.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by ChuckNorris89 on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:44AM (#27103350)
Embedded development is more than just wrangling C, that would be like saying backend dev is wrangling EC2 instances ;).

It's knowing how low level hardware operates and knowing how to dig yourself out of the various gotchas like for example figuring out that a last minute replacement of the crystal oscillator by the HW team with a cheaper one is now screwing up your boot process or that the reason your products are starting to go haywire after 6 months is an interrupt triggering too many writes to the flash, wearing it out prematurely, etc.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by sumtechguy on Monday May 10, 2021 @09:21AM (#27105690)
Even just making software for those things can be interesting. You need to know how the memory is laid out. You need to know if an interrupt happens at the wrong spot you are broken. I had one where the data was bumping through a 485 bus and the data was coming out wonky on the other side. Meaning I had 0 control over the software or hw on the other side as it was a vendor product. But I could at least read the chips numbers and guess what the dev did with the memory segments on the other side. Turns out I was telling the thing to read over a memory boundary which caused odd results. Which lead me to breaking the command into 2 parts.

Sometimes being an embedded dev is dead easy. Other times you are dealing with a GCC chain from 2003. 2 layers of some 3rd party of libs that someone bought in 2005 because the VP was good friends with a buddy in some other company that made something similar (which you may may not have the code for). With 64k of flash and RAM. And the vendor ground off the chip numbers and put their own sticker in place. Playing detective, historian, and making good guesses as you may not even have access to the firmware anymore. Then on top of that sometimes you are really lucky and have a debug port and can play the printf logging game to see what is going wrong.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by neilv on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:06AM (#27103444)
I hope an EE with a logic analyzer will help troubleshoot the clock problem, since I don't think the prevailing software methodology will work (i.e., ask on Stackoverflow, then add three dozen more Node.js packages to the firmware footprint). :)
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by yetihehe on Monday May 10, 2021 @05:54AM (#27104337)
You don't need EE for that, just reasonably competent embedded programmer with a logic analyzer. But that's typically the difference between embedded programmers and "normal" programmers.
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by milesvp on Monday May 10, 2021 @03:08AM (#27103456)
I’m terrified about wearing out a flash on a unit I’m working on. I have a permanent break point in that code. Logically I know when a write is supposed to trigger, but oh man I’m paranoid I’m going to burn my prototype with a fat finger of something.
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by Chris2048 on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:16PM (#27110363)
Does "Embedded dev" imply digital, or can it include analogue things too?
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by ChuckNorris89 on Monday May 10, 2021 @02:52AM (#27103376)
>Now find a single person who can program bare hardware on a short notice on above Arduino level.

Are you in the US? Because EU is full of embedded devs.

Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by baybal2 on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:11AM (#27103765)
That's happening in China. It's not that uncommon.
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by pyb on Monday May 10, 2021 @06:34AM (#27104493)
Where in the world is this happening ? Maybe I should get back into this game. Low-level development hadn't been a well rewarded area in recent years.
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by baybal2 on Monday May 10, 2021 @07:33AM (#27104786)
The place where all RnD shops have migrated to — China
Re:The global chip shortage is starting to have consequences by stemthirtywat on Sunday May 09, 2021 @03:30PM (#27098959)
I wonder if that sort of library compatibility might be the reason for the shortages in those particular part lines?

It looks easy to find STM32L0x2 chips in stock. Those are not supported by the QMK firmware, but they are very similar in terms of peripherals and features to the supported (and hard-to-find) STM32F0x2 lines. The main differences are a lower minimum operating voltage and more power management options, IIRC.