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Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by Nursie on Thursday May 06, 2021 @09:15AM (#27062719)
All I have to say to that is "You'd be surprised", particularly when you get a reputation for picking up new things quickly.

> Companies invest in training

Literally never happened for me in 12 years of perm work, for large and small companies. Discounting trivial/patronising things like security training. I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor, just as I did when perm.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by erikerikson on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:15AM (#27063531)
The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out. The trappings of instruction are not what makes training educational.
Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by Nursie on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:17AM (#27063575)
> The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out.

Then contracting has been no different to perm work in that respect, for me. :shrug:

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by dominotw on Thursday May 06, 2021 @09:20AM (#27062782)
> I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor

Why would i hire a self trained machine learning engineer with no experience on high day rates when I can hire someone with experience. Ppl hiring contractors don't have time or patience for you to experiment with self training on their dime, I would hire a fulltimer if i have all the time and money for ppl to learn on the job.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by Nursie on Thursday May 06, 2021 @09:23AM (#27062817)
Again, all I can really say is "You'd be surprised".

I think ML is probably different, in that it's not something that can be just 'picked up' that easily (AFAICT).

But it's honestly surprised me over the years how often my clients have said "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by nasmorn on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:06AM (#27063398)
Wouldn’t we all just rather have someone competent work at our issues? It is not like most orgs can simply hire some perfectly knowledgeable superstar for their next problem. They can just spin the wheel of fortune and get someone who has the correct experience on paper. I‘d go with the person who solved my last 5 problems competently as well.
Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by mgkimsal on Thursday May 06, 2021 @09:34AM (#27062976)
> "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"

If you're already working in their systems and domain, you probably have a decent idea of how you can address it, even if it's outside your main area of expertise. This happens to me, and... if I'm completely unqualified, I just say "I can't do that, here's someone else who can" and make a referral/connection to someone in my network. That's often the harder part - finding someone in my network who is both competent and available.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by Silhouette on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:04AM (#27063359)
The most important thing is probably having that network in the first place, not just to offer referrals but to get good gigs yourself.

I know a few very experienced people who have looked into contracting or freelancing over the past year either for the first time or for the first round in many years. They have good skills and the aptitude to pick up whatever else they need, but without the broad network that comes with years of doing short term gigs, they've found the market very tough to break into. I doubt they would recognise the talk of a seller's market and ever-increasing rates that we see on sites like HN!

If you don't have that network and people actively seeking you out, you get stuck with looking via agencies (= ghosted often if you don't already have exactly the right buzzwords) or the online marketplaces (= low rates, poor quality clients and high risk of problems with the marketplace itself). And even if you do, I've seen more than one person whose whole network basically all fell apart around the same time because whole industries were hit by COVID.

Today even more than usual, it is about who you know as much as what you know.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by dopidopHN on Thursday May 06, 2021 @09:54AM (#27063217)
companies investing in training is real.

Be it pushing for certification, mooc, internal training credit.

All of that was part of my review for instance. It does work.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by Nursie on Thursday May 06, 2021 @09:59AM (#27063294)
Ugh, reviews, another part of employee life I haven't missed!

That stuff re: training was not something that was part of my life as a perm worker, in the UK or Australia. The companies certainly liked to pay lip-service to employee development, but I didn't see much evidence of it actually happening.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by LanceH on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:52AM (#27064117)
One of the things I enjoy about contracting is that instead of watching all the videos on harassment and whatever, I usually just have to sign a code of conduct. Those corporate videos are soul crushing.

I guess the exception was one quiz about bribery I had to take at IBM. It asked me what I would do if I were offered a cook to go with my lodgings where I was staying during an engagement. This woke me up to the possibilities of bribery I didn't know people were getting. I'm not exactly looking for bribes, but my the hypotheticals had me thinking way too small.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by Nursie on Thursday May 06, 2021 @11:45AM (#27065009)
Actually you raise a good point - I also did a short bribery and corruption self-driven training thing at IBM, and that one was at least interesting.

The “Active Shooter” one at JPMC was somewhat sobering.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by LanceH on Thursday May 06, 2021 @12:44PM (#27065913)
I would accept a cook, btw, if anyone out there is bribing :)
Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by dopidopHN on Friday May 07, 2021 @10:58AM (#27076648)
I received quality training on framework, language and protocols by coworker of that company. Those people spend a good 20% of their time doing that for clients anyway, so they are both comfortable doing it and I thougt it was decent dive ( modules span 20-30 hours )

I was not referring to conplicance trainings. Those, of course you won’t learn a thing.

Re:Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract ma... by blaser-waffle on Thursday May 06, 2021 @11:52AM (#27065118)
Same. Heard much discussion about it at every job, but in terms of actual time or dollars -- nah.