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Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:04PM (#27000682)
A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive.

I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by dstaley on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:13PM (#27000768)
Two things:

1. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, about half of people making minimum wage or less are older than 25 years old.

2. A single person working a full-time job (32 hours) at minimum wage makes $12,064. The US federal definition of poverty for this individual would be anything below $12,880. So yes, minimum wage workers are literally, by definition, working for poverty wages.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by AdrianB1 on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:55AM (#27006330)
Where is a full time job 32 hours? We work 40 hours in most of the world, that is 25% more.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by WarChortle18 on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:34AM (#27007097)
Many companies in the US limit their employees to 32 or 36 hours a week so they don't have to pay benefits. It's a horrible system.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:25PM (#27000879)
I don't find those talking points convincing.

For one, even with your statistics, half of folks employed are school-age. Also, poverty is measured by household. Confusing the math isn't a good way to make a quantitative argument.

But mostly your argument is a semantic trick around the word "poverty" to rationalize weighted terminology.

Again, I have strong feelings that employers should be conscious of the lives and prospects of their employees. For instance, having policies that lead to irregular patterns of night and day shifts that have to be unhealthy long-term. But we can have rational discussion about these issues.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by ncallaway on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:35AM (#27007109)
> Also, poverty is measured by household. Confusing the math isn't a good way to make a quantitative argument.

The figure they used was for a household of size 1, so I don't think they confused the math and I think they made a perfectly strong quantitative argument.

https://aspe.hhs.gov/2021-poverty-guidelines#threshholds

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by bp0017 on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:15PM (#27000784)
Be careful with this argument, it's a talking point that over-represents the amount of these jobs held by teenagers earning pocket money. Quite a lot of minimum wage jobs are held by single parents or people just trying to stay afloat.

By the way, even if it is just teenagers, I don't think that should somehow disqualify them from earning fair wages. They aren't being "provided" jobs, they work to produce value for a company, and and should be compensated fairly regardless of their financial situation.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:28PM (#27000923)
I'm more concerned that teenagers in poverty won't be able to get jobs at all.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by rbg246 on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:46PM (#27001121)
But you have said yourself it's 'bagel' money, it doesn't seem to be coherent to be defending both teenager after school jobs and teenagers in poverty.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by shkkmo on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:17PM (#27001896)
You seem to have read too quickly, the poster was talking about someone working a cashier in a store that sells bagels, not about someone making money to buy bagels.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:03PM (#27001288)
Teenagers getting whatever after school jobs they can contribute to incomes for households in poverty. If the McD's kiosk takes the cashier job, the family loses income. I don't want households in poverty. I'm just unconvinced by this mechanism. I'd rather see minimum incomes or policies to deflate housing costs.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by kixiQu on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:21PM (#27000845)
https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percen...

88 percent of people making the federal minimum wage are older than 20. A third are older than 40. Median age is 31. More than half work full time.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:33PM (#27000981)
You have a good point, and I appreciate the evenhanded approach. I'm still far from sold that "poverty wage" is a useful term if we want to have a healthy discussion. It leaves too much nuance out.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by vlahmot on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:26PM (#27001508)
It doesn’t though. Poverty is well defined (and is defined based on the number of people in the household).

https://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty-guidelines

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by AdrianB1 on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:58AM (#27006350)
So wages should be linked to the number of people in the household? Workers with more kids should earn more by law?

We do this is Europe, we pay something called 'kid allowance'. In some places people make 10 kids for the allowance, ignore them or mistreat them and live on that money.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by adgjlsfhk1 on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:27PM (#27001513)
Name one state where someone making minimum wage can afford an apartment, food, healthcare, and utilities, and some form of transportation. I think it's fair to say that if you can't, that counts as poverty.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:44PM (#27001664)
Who says that's the point of minimum wage? That's where we disagree.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by adgjlsfhk1 on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:06PM (#27001811)
If you're agreeing that anyone living on that wage is in poverty, I think it's fair to call it a poverty wage.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by Pfhreak on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:26PM (#27000889)
I was a teenager working a minimum wage job. I also had to pay for housing, meals, healthcare, etc. Don't assume a teenager has a life less complex than yours.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:31PM (#27000962)
With all due respect, you don't know me or what I've been through either.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by Pfhreak on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:37PM (#27001034)
Sure. Point stands: I was literally a teenager making change on bagel purchases. (Yes, actual bagel shoppe.) I was absolutely making poverty wages. If I did not have free meals from work as a perk I would have starved.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:42PM (#27001087)
And I worked minimum wage and it allowed my poor household to make ends meet. And another minimum wage job helped me stay solvent enough to survive university.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by 8note on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:53PM (#27001196)
In what location though? Living costs are notably different by location
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:14PM (#27001387)
Apologies, but I'd rather not reveal too much personal info. But I did get need-based financial assistance in university. And I did attend a low cost school for financial reasons.

I didn't "pay my way through school washing dishes" or anything like that.

I wasn't supported by my family so the extra income through low pay jobs was critical.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by 8note on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:39PM (#27002047)
Oh no problem, I'm just pointing out that both your experiences can be valid at the same time
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by Pfhreak on Friday April 30, 2021 @10:19PM (#27002326)
Also, one can make ends meet and still be in poverty. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by cjohnson318 on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:32PM (#27000967)
> A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages".

Aren't they though? You don't get a discount on rent because you're not 20 yet, and being under 20 doesn't mean you have rich parents that can subsidize your lifestyle.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:39PM (#27001060)
I'm not arguing for low wages. But it's dishonest to conflate household income and individual salary.

More specifically, having a roommate or two or living with some family unit is fairly normal at that age. So other income needs to be accounted for to make that semantic argument stick.

Of course not everyone can have employed housemates. But even in those cases, it's not clear to me that banning 16 year olds from working those jobs helps all those 16 year olds. It seems likely that many of them end up worse off.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by pnutjam on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:54PM (#27001200)
I'm sorry, but I think you absolutely have to give reasons to create a subclass. People do not need to explain why they should be treated the same.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:19PM (#27001438)
How is paying a teenager to sweep a floor making a subclass? Seems like we're on a trajectory to replace that teenager with a vacuum drone, and I don't see as many teenagers employed in that world.

The wealthy wouldn't notice. Their teenagers are entrepreneuring and racking up unpaid volunteer hours to pad resumes. The teenagers with jobs are the ones that could use the money.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by pnutjam on Saturday May 01, 2021 @01:09PM (#27007872)
It's pretty asinine to pretend these entry level jobs teach anyone anything. Let it be automated.

The kids that are hard-working and poor will find something else to do. You don't have a right to exploit kids.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by rbg246 on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:44PM (#27001107)
Any gap in labor law leads to exploitation by a business owner, anything that can lead to business advantage gets used.

Besides I found really distasteful when I was in my 20s being told that I didn't need the additional money because I didn't have a mortgage.

I don't think we need to rely on employer moralism, so Dickensian.

Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:20PM (#27001451)
I'm not arguing for ageism. I'm only arguing that "poverty wage" isn't a helpful term.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by pnutjam on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:51PM (#27001175)
How do you feel about kids saving for or working while attending college? It's pretty rich to say people don't deserve money when they need it.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by humanrebar on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:22PM (#27001475)
I worked while attending college. I suspect the supply of those jobs will be affected, meaning marginally employable youth will just be unemployed.
Re:Labor shortage or terrible jobs? by pnutjam on Saturday May 01, 2021 @01:09PM (#27007875)
But they are supposed to pay for an ever increasing tuition bill with 1990's minimum wage?