I had to wake up at 4:45 am for school every morning (and I had and have sleep apnea) because the bus ride across town to the "magnet" school (Trace, which burned down and was rebuilt) took 90 minutes each way. (3 hours of useless travel as the bus made what seemed a hundred stops, almost like a Hilbert curve.) I was not allowed to go to the school a block away (the original Allen Elementary before it moved into Steinbeck Middle School), within walking distance, only because I was white. That's how "desegregation" worked at the SJUSD in the mid-80's and late-90's.

Also, there were a group of girls on the bus who harassed me by repeatedly exposing their privates towards me with impunity. It didn't matter if I ignored them, it happened for at least 2 years.

In fairness, there was another incident where two 5th grade girls (9-10) at the same school tried dragging me into the bushes on the east side of the building out-of-view when I was in the 4th grade (8). Unfortunately for them, there was a space around each bush and the building, so it was easy to slip out next to the building. At the time, I didn't understand what they were doing, so it wasn't that traumatic.

The "magnet" schools seemed to group poor and dysfunctional kids together and then try to sprinkle middle-class and gifted kids involuntarily under a social experiment that they'll make the other kids "better" by osmosis. The promise of the "magnet" school was they were supposed to do something extra and get more money, but I think they were a magnet for concentrating problems. My guess is there was a lot of child abuse occurring against girls in the low income areas and at magnet schools, so some of them were experiencing precocious puberty and acting-out.

Oddly enough, I was never in a fight with other boys anytime in school, probably because I dwarfed everyone else. Or maybe we were all too tired to care?

Also interesting was by high school, which started later, I was able to awaken at the same minute (7:58 am) every day. By then, I bicycled 3.8 miles / 6.1 km twice a day to school; a school with a parking lot full of students' Mercedes and BMWs while the teachers were making peanuts.

The amount of over-30s who will defend this on town Facebook groups by saying it's what they did and turned out fine is terrible. I get to sleep in and wake up for my intellectually demanding job whenever I want and I feel how much more I'm able to deliver because of it. It makes me sad to think about how much learning I missed out on as a 16 year old because I would be falling asleep in class so often.

People say, "My parents beat me and I beat my kids and I turned out just fine!" I think, 'did you hear what you just said?'

Whenever I hear, "turned out fine" it prompts me to look closer.

It's up to today's parents to provide a better environment for their children, regardless of popular sentiment.

My kids opted to be 100% virtual and asynchronous for their schooling this year. This means that they do not need to be up at a given hour and that they can get ahead in their classes if they have the opportunity. This has its pros and cons, as it takes willpower to stay focused on their school work. It's also forcing them to essentially teach themselves, which I find to be an excellent skill to have.

The best part of this is not having to get up very early. My oldest was picked up by the bus at 6:07 AM every day. Now she wakes up more naturally and it's been a fantastic change. She can get more rest, if needed, when she has her monthly, which isn't something she would be able to normally do.

You are correct.

There is tremendous value in open door daycare policies. Some kids arrive 730 because thats their parents schedule. Others at 10 because little sam decides to sleep in.

Its unfortunate that the assembly-line aspect of post-K schooling forces kids to fixed times which are often at odds with the children or even parent's needs

I mean, from age 12-18 my school started at 7:30. Which meant I had to get on the bus at 6:45 to make it on time. Which meant I had to get up at 6am. I was actually getting up earlier for school than my dad for work for a while, lol.

And no, it wasn't some ancient history either.

I've never had to (consistently) get up for a job as early as I did for high school. And that's despite a 5-minute commute for high school, versus at times a 40-minute (one way) commute for work.

Actually, in general, high school was the most demanding part of my life, so far as long stretches of time go (sure, I've had the odd week or month that's worse). And I was a pretty bad slacker about things like homework (given the time demands even with that lax attitude, I think I'd have gone actually-crazy otherwise).

Middle-aged now. Nothing's been as rough as high school, or even close. And I had it pretty easy (no significant bullying issues or anything like that, stable home life)

I had a similar story. My day in High School was from 7:28 AM to 2:08pm. Getting up to go to school wasn't a huge deal for me, but I did love having so much time after school to play a sport, hang with friends, etc. and still have plenty of time to get my (way less than kids seem to get nowadays) homework done.

I'm conflicted on this, mostly because that after school time was very valuable to me, much more than being able to sleep in a little more. This was extra true in the winter, when the sun set by 5pm. I also recognize that not everyone to be as easily up and awake that early in the day.

Just what I was thinking. Is the goal education or some kind of storage facility? I read there is a 25% drop in performance if one doesn't sleep properly the month before a test.

It's supposed to be about education, of course, but there is also a massively practical element of keeping young and impulsive people busy and contained during the day.

Both? I am not sure what your suggestion is for a 7 year old when both parents start work at 8am

Adjust work schedules to allow children an appropriate amount of sleep. But, this requires broad societal buy-in, as most employees can't simply declare "I'm starting my day at 10am".

Maybe we could have a society with basic income or improved government childcare benefits so only one parent needs to work. Alas, it will never happen in the USA, because it would involve taking money from rich people.

I would be expected to be stay at home, because school schedule wouls force me so? And if I was divorced or husband was sick, I would be screwed?

Raise taxes on everyone and pay one of them to stay home.

This is the interesting takeaway from the current situation: lockdown exceptions directly reflect priorities, and while teachers and parents were crying bloody murder the school stayed open to allow people to go to work.

Where I grew up they staggered schedules for middle school/elementary school/high school so that the buses would be busy all day. So high school started early.

They are switching that in many districts nowadays, to recognize that young kids wake up early naturally while teens need to sleep in.

It is totally the worst thing. My kids never really adapted to it and a lot was driven by our commute. Funny thing is a year in and they still manage to wake up at 6:30-7am without alarms or waking them up. Granted they go to bed by 9pm so it’s at least 9-10hours of sleep a day.

The advantages of living close to one's place of work or education cannot be overstated.

How does that compare to historical routines? Did teenagers and other school-age kids ever get to sleep in? I have a hard time imagining kids old enough to help with family work being allowed to sleep in until noon.

Historical routines are hard to compare against - because they weren't a day/night cycle like we have now. [0]

A lot of kids may have been asleep at noon, like the Spanish siesta, equally, kids may have been involved in the midnight harvest, or caring for the fire.

Things tended towards more of several smaller sleeping periods spread out over the entire day, and periods of activity at times that might feel strange now.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783

Yeah, nail on the head here. I'm pretty sure school schedules are more of an inheritance from the old world than they are a plan to free up parents for more labor. In the old world, school had to be fitted around a kid's work day, not their parents.

Is the 10K years or so that we have been farming enough to change our prior patterns of need?

Even that change isn't as great as we have with clocks and electric light. You don't often need to farm when it's dark out.

Maybe they helped at night when their parents were sleeping?

No, they were expected to wake up soon along with everybody.

It’s fine as long as you putting them to bed early too.

Sleeping 8pm to 6:30am is enough. But you have to put them to bed by then.

That's not necessarily true - it's age dependent. Adolescents/teenagers are "hardwired" to stay up later[1] and sleep in later (relative to adults or younger children).

1 - https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/specialties/sleep-disord...

Somehow, hardwired time to sleep is independent of sunsent and location in timezone. No matter where the sun is at, no matter anything.

In winter, there is dark at like 17:00. How do their bodies know difference between 22:00 and 24:00?

Yep, my bedtime was 8pm growing up, until middle school, then it was 9pm. 15-16 was when I stopped having a bedtime. I absolutely hated it at the time, especially in the summer because it would still be light out when I went to bed, and I never felt like I never ever felt like tired or like I needed to go to sleep at "bedtime".

In retrospect I'm glad I always had a full night's sleep, because I wouldn't have if left to my own devices.

Nowadays parents keep their kids up all hours of the night, I really don't get it. I see elementary aged kids out and about (in public) 9, 10, even 11pm.

I had similar experience. I had regular bedtime out of necessity. At the time, I was ambivalent to it and a bit jealous over friends who went to sleep whenever. They regularly went to slep very late due to watching movies out gaming.

Now in retrospective, I am glad I learned to cut activities and go to sleep. Paid off in college, actually. And I plan to do the same for my kids.

This is an overly simplistic take. Everyone has different natural circadian rhythms and not everyone is tired enough to fall asleep at 8pm.

This whole thread is a simplistic take, mostly in the other direction. When I was a teenager I woke up at the crack of dawn. And given the number of bright eyed fellow students in the same 'early bird' classes, I was hardly the only one.

Sure if humans where robots that have an push to sleep button directly when you get to bed.

My children all go to bed at 8:30 PM and only one of them naturally wakes up before 7AM.

Then they're home at 4pm and get a whole 4 hours for homework, recreational activities and relaxing.

Amount of free time is orthogonal to start time. That's controlled by the length of their school day; not when they start.

And at the same time, many employers motivate an early start of the workday with accommodating for parents

And it's never going to get fixed, because this is the USA and placing any restrictions on how employers treat employees is evil socialism.

Germany is the same, even though it is more socialist-inspired.