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Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by userbinator on Monday April 26, 2021 @09:31PM (#26950707)
I'm wondering more about the effects the increased cleanliness will have on people's immune systems --- all the masking, social distancing, constant hand sanitiser use, etc. is, in addition to reducing exposure to COVID, also reducing the exposure to the countless other pathogens that people are normally exposed to. Does the lack of exercising ones' immune system have a cost too?
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by skue on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:33PM (#26951254)
There is the Hygiene Hypothesis, which is the reverse: Decreased exposure to some pathogens, especially when young, can make the immune system overly sensitive and thereby increase the risk of atopic and autoimmune disorders.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by riggsdk on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @10:53AM (#26956715)
On the (maybe?) reverse: I grew up on a farm and later moved to a big city to study computer science. It was only then that my allergy kicked in. I wonder if that would ever have happened if I had gone the farming route in life :P In any case, life in the big cities seem to mess with our immune systems.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by bsou on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @06:31PM (#26962736)
This may be due to what trees are planted in cities:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/botanical-se...

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by mattmaroon on Monday April 26, 2021 @09:58PM (#26950957)
A lot of people wonder this first part and the answer is definitively no because immune systems generally don’t work that way. It’s (mostly) not something general purpose like a bicep. Getting sick with one diseases mostly does very little for you with most other diseases.

You can lift weights at the gym and build your arm muscles, then use those muscles to lift or push other things more effectively, because muscles are general purpose tools.

Most of your immune system is more like a key. It’s specific to one thing. There are some exceptions but overall the fewer viruses you encounter the better.

As for the exercise: yes. There’s already preliminary evidence that exercise is highly coordinated with covid outcomes.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by xyzzy123 on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:54PM (#26951429)
Hi, I'm surprised by your "definitively no" as I understood this as still an open question - particularly with respect to autoimmune risks.

Do you have any resources to help me understand your position better?

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by mensetmanusman on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:58AM (#26952171)
Still lots of debate as to how the immune system works. If we understood it there wouldn’t be millions of people suffering from allergies (some who get it after moving to ‘clean’ western countries)
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by frutiger on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:42PM (#26951329)
> As for the exercise: yes. There’s already preliminary evidence that exercise is highly coordinated with covid outcomes.

GP asked “lack of exercising one’s immune system” not “lack of exercising” in general.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by kevinmchugh on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:45PM (#26951351)
Are people still using lots of hand sanitizer? Why?
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by ascorbic on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:32AM (#26952389)
My kids have been coming back from school with the backs of their hands bleeding because they're so dry from being forced to constantly use sanitiser all day. This is because government guidelines have not been updated since it became clear that it's not transmitted by contact. We've had to tell them to use the smallest amount possible, and only on their palms.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by Tor3 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:17AM (#26953704)
> [..] since it became clear that it's not transmitted by contact.

That'll need a reference. It's only a few weeks since a worker was infected in a one-person workshop[1], from the guy working there two days earlier. Testing showed that it was the exact same (rare) virus strain and the only explanation was that the second guy got infected from using the same tools as the first guy (not infected _through_ the hands of course, but presumably by touching his face afterwards. As one does).

(Keeping surfaces clean is the most important part, otherwise you'll have to clean your hands every time you touch something. As for myself I've become very self-conscious about what I touch.)

[1]https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https:/...

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by kevinmchugh on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @09:09AM (#26955338)
Assuming they did good contact tracing here and found that it really was the only way this guy was exposed, we're talking about a vanishingly rare route to infection. The article calls it one in a million infections. I think it might be rarer than that.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by ascorbic on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @01:57AM (#26966132)
Sure. When I said "not transmitted by contact" I should have said "rarely transmitted by contact". It has become clear that the overwhelming majority of transmisson is through aerosols indoors.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-r...

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by graeme on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @08:38AM (#26955052)
Very interesting, thanks. Though it remains exceedingly rare so far as we can tell.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by aspaviento on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:43AM (#26952796)
The purpose of the sanitizer is not to prevent contagion by contact, it's for you to make sure that your hands are clean before touching your face (mouth, nose, eyes). That's how you get infected, the virus get onto your hands for whatever reason and you touch your face. So technically it's true it's not transmitted by contact directly but it does indirectly.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by ascorbic on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @01:59AM (#26966141)
Yes, I understand that, but that's still a vanishingly rare route of transmission. The way you get infected is by inhaling aerosols.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by skinkestek on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:35AM (#26952752)
As far as I'm aware the only reason to use hand sanitizer is because soap (which is more effective - again AFAIK but this has been told since the start) is even more damaging do the skin when done often.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by zo1 on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @10:48AM (#26956650)
Let's not forget the incredible "convenience" factor of waterless hand sanitizer. Who needs a pesky basin, soap & running water when you can just spray this magical liquid on your hands and be done in a jiffy.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by jakeogh on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:47AM (#26953184)
Really? So... where do the guardians of these children draw the line? There's no line... just say it. The "gov mandate" conditioning is so well tested through history.

Kids, highest risk group for this flu virus... right?

Psychologically, they are, and I think you know that.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by KMag on Monday April 26, 2021 @11:34PM (#26951692)
> Are people still using lots of hand sanitizer? Why?

We're still using lots of hand sanitizer here, because the combination of masks, social distancing, and hand sanitizer seems to work. Though, we could be mistaken about the relative effectiveness/necessity of the three measures. My office building has hand sanitizer dispensers in the entryway.

Yes, it's primarily a respiratory virus, but the cost of hand sanitization is pretty low and the virus remains infectious on most surfaces for several hours. Here in Hong Kong, we're one of the most dense cities on Earth, with a lot of public transit use, so surface contamination may be more of an issue here than in other places.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by kevinmchugh on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:06AM (#26951893)
Businesses stock sanitizer because it's cheap and compatible with the status quo ante, not because there's any reason to believe it's effective.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by bluGill on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @07:26AM (#26954495)
Sanitizer is for more than just covid. We were washing hands long before covid, and I hope it continues
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by gentryb on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:54PM (#26951421)
Some are - at least most doing COVID Vaccination administration are people that I can personally say are using "lots" of hand sanitizer each day. (yes, my hands still hurt)
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by adamhp on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @07:15AM (#26954417)
I like the way it makes my hands smell.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by joegahona on Monday April 26, 2021 @11:06PM (#26951506)
No, not really. That died out rather quickly, as did singling “Happy Birthday” while washing one’s hands.
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Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by antibuddy on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:07AM (#26953310)
Your hyperbole will not fly well here. Generally speaking the rationale behind masks is heavily flawed and there is yet to be a study to prove that masks help in a pandemic.

They sure work for limited amounts of time in specific use-cases, especially with training and when you can wash your hands before putting them on.

Day-to-day for longer durations at a time they seem detrimental actually, due to the fact that you have to touch your face more often (especially with glasses), wear them for too long and reuse them often.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by freeflight on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @05:49AM (#26953894)
> Generally speaking the rationale behind masks is heavily flawed and there is yet to be a study to prove that masks help in a pandemic.

This is only anecdotal, but as somebody working in healthcare, mostly with autoimmune compromised patients in ambulate care, there's most certainly been a very noticeable effect among those patients, and even myself.

I will usually get a cold at least once, sometimes twice a year, forcing to take sick days. Yet that last year I wasn't sick once.

We've had to administer way less antibiotics therapies, the hospital stations we work together with are super happy about how well their patients are doing now, particularly the children.

Kind of funny to think about: The way we've been living for a year has always been their way of living. But when we all do it, that apparently even gives a kind of "herd protection" to those who really depend on these measures not to get sick.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by antibuddy on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @07:30AM (#26954529)
> This is only anecdotal, but as somebody working in healthcare, mostly with autoimmune compromised patients in ambulate care, there's most certainly been a very noticeable effect among those patients, and even myself.

And that is certainly due to masks? I ask because there are generally speaking more measures in place, especially in hospitals/nursing homes like fewer visitors (if any) for example.

> We've had to administer way less antibiotics therapies, the hospital stations we work together with are super happy about how well their patients are doing now, particularly the children.

And again, is that due to or despite using masks?

But since I am questioning the rationale, it would be nice if there would be a good explanation why it is better for symptomless people to touch their face more often, wear masks beyond their intended duration and reuse them (because it is impractical otherwise especially with mandatory medical/FFP2 masks)

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by freeflight on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @11:46AM (#26957533)
> And that is certainly due to masks?

I didn't specifically point masks out anywhere, it's most certainly the combination of all kinds of measures, but wearing masks and taking care of proper hand hygiene has been a rather normal part of life for many people with autoimmune diseases for a long time before any pandemic came around.

In many Asian countries it's absolutely normal to wear a mask when sick, to prevent further spread possibly to the weaker among society.

That's done not because we like to make people do things, we do that because it's been established as good practice in these circumstances.

> But since I am questioning the rationale, it would be nice if there would be a good explanation why it is better for symptomless people to touch their face more often

A hygiene regime isn't some binary thing where one failure of perfect compliance ruins the whole effort.

Particularly with examples like "touching face more often", why would you even do that? You put on the mask and you leave it on, the constant touching, particularly with dirty hands, is really down to a lot of people being lazy/careless or trying to wear the mask as little as possible.

> wear masks beyond their intended duration and reuse them (because it is impractical otherwise especially with mandatory medical/FFP2 masks)

Their intended duration is, once again, a best case scenario often designed for completely sterile conditions. Depending on the use a FFP2 can easily last a week. Just like surgical masks they can actually be handwashed with soap to get a good reduction of whatever might have collected up in there.

Of course that doesn't work forever, just like this current situation ain't forever.

But one could hope that we learn at least in a couple of places from this. Like the aforementioned example of people who caught something voluntarily wearing a mask, without getting weird looks. Somewhat more readily access to hand-sanitation is also a big plus, when previously a lot of people didn't really care about it, many still don't, even tho that's one of the simplest ways to stay healthier.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by antibuddy on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:42PM (#26960518)
> In many Asian countries it's absolutely normal to wear a mask when sick, to prevent further spread possibly to the weaker among society.

"When sick" is an important distinction from the current regime.

> A hygiene regime isn't some binary thing where one failure of perfect compliance ruins the whole effort.

It's exactly like that. You get either infected or you don't. It's binary, however you maybe mean that there is a probability attached that is bound by the circumstances.

> Particularly with examples like "touching face more often", why would you even do that? You put on the mask and you leave it on, the constant touching, particularly with dirty hands, is really down to a lot of people being lazy/careless or trying to wear the mask as little as possible.

How is it better to wear masks for these "lazy/careless" people (which are apparently a lot)?

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by freeflight on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @07:23AM (#26968113)
> It's exactly like that. You get either infected or you don't. It's binary, however you maybe mean that there is a probability attached that is bound by the circumstances.

Sorry, but that's just not how it works, by now there's plenty of evidence that initial viral load exposure plays a major role in the later disease progression, which is not something unique to SARS-CoV-2.

As such it's very much part of the whole spectrum of outcomes from "Asymptomatic to mild symptoms" to "Ending up on a respirator and dying".

These are basics, and I'm not gonna discuss them with some random stranger who, once again, tries to politicize rather common sense, and established, medical practices.

> How is it better to wear masks for these "lazy/careless" people (which are apparently a lot)?

Yes, the top of the bell curve is sadly a very crowded place.