News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by phendrenad2 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @10:54PM (#26910543)
I think Apple will keep selling x86 Macs forever. For heavy-duty workstation workloads, M1 just doesn't cut it.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by thesandlord on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:32PM (#26910709)
They already said they would be 100% off x86 in two years: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/06/apple-announces-mac-t...

We are still only 6 months into that transition.

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by lstamour on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:22AM (#26910966)
The page you're citing contradicts that statement -- they will not be 100% off x86, but instead will offer 100% of their products with the option of buying an Apple ARM chip:

> This transition will also establish a common architecture across all Apple products, making it far easier for developers to write and optimize their apps for the entire ecosystem.

> Apple plans to ship the first Mac with Apple silicon by the end of the year and complete the transition in about two years. Apple will continue to support and release new versions of macOS for Intel-based Macs for years to come, and has exciting new Intel-based Macs in development.

I would expect Intel-based Mac Pros to continue for as long as there's a market for them. Probably at least 2-4 years after the "transition" finishes. (The last spec bump in 1-2 years, and sales end 3-4 years from now...)

It's also worth pointing out that Apple supports its products roughly 7 years from when they're sold, which means Apple will likely continue supporting Intel-based MacOS for at least another decade, possibly as much as 13-15 years. That said, I wouldn't buy an Intel Mac after 2024 and expect the same experience even if Apple supports it until 2031 or later: In just a few years, I'd expect Apple would have created even more MacOS features uniquely suited to the ARM chips they're now making.

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by thesandlord on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:56AM (#26911101)
I'm sure they will support x86 for years, but I have a feeling they will stop selling new products with x86 rather quickly.

If you look at the PPC to x86 transition [0] it happened faster than predicted, and OS support only lasted 3 years after it was done.

IMO Microsoft is the company that heavily prioritizes backwards compatibility, while Apple is happy to drop support where necessary to move forward.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_transition_to_Intel_proces...

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by lstamour on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:42AM (#26915890)
You're using the transition that everyone wanted to point a rosy picture. Everyone wanted Intel chips and Wintel compatibility. PPC was too slow, too hot.

Fact is, until they can get nVidia GTX compatibility or quality, there will be a significant market of 3D and gaming that does not want to switch.

And I say this as someone who very much likes my new M1 Macbook and wants to convince the rest of the family and friends to never again buy an x86-based laptop computer.

If Apple can add 3D and gaming chips equivalent to the GTX 3000 series with software support, all within 2 years? Amazing and that speeds up their switchover -- but Adobe, for one, has still not yet updated Adobe After Effects and likely won't for at least a year, even though they announced they would. I'll remind folks that Adobe said they would consider adding Metal support to After Effects almost five years ago and still hasn't. Other apps are in a similar state.

I don't doubt that Apple would like the transition to be quick as well as seamless, and I think most portable products will transition very quickly. But unless Apple wants to leave the Pro market they just entered by making things too unstable for Pros, they will tread carefully on eliminating sales and support for Intel. Especially because even now they are selling 16" MacBook Pros that run Intel, and Intel Mac Pros, and 27" iMacs (formerly Pros) and all three of these platforms should ideally be supported for five years, minimum, ideally six given we could count the last year as the "seventh" year of support.

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by anthk on Friday April 23, 2021 @06:58AM (#26913358)
Yes, but in the PPC era Apple published amazing quality products several times superior to W98SE, W2000 and even XP.

Now, until the M1, Intel Macs where pretty much mediocre, even against a (fully configured OFC) KDE [3-5] BSD/Linux setup. Even with their iThingie ecosystem integration.

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by dev_tty01 on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:13AM (#26910921)
Hmm. Sure, M1 isn't suited for heavy workstation loads. They didn't target that sector yet. What's your point?

This is not the last processor they will do. Have you been watching the massive year over year performance gains Apple has been making for several years? There will be an M2 and an M3, and ....

Given the performance AND energy beating they are putting on the market sector that they targeted with M1, why is there any reason to believe they won't kill the high-end workstation sector when they target that?

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by phire on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:54PM (#26910825)
I'm expecting apple to go the tiles or chiplet route for their workstation processors. TSMC have been working on some advanced packaging methods that are ideal for this usecase.

Apple could make one 16 core die and offer workstations with anywhere between one and four tiles for 16 to 64 cores.

As for the high end laptops and iMacs, I'm expecting Apple to launch a monolithic 8+4 chip.

That would be just 3 unique dies to cover Apples entire Mac lineup.

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by diebeforei485 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:39PM (#26910749)
I will grant that the Mac Pro will be one of the last to transition, but I don't think it will stay on x86 forever. It may receive a spec bump at most.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by rvz on Friday April 23, 2021 @05:07AM (#26912631)
> I think Apple will keep selling x86 Macs forever.

Apple immediately discontinued all Mac minis, almost all the Macbook Air and Pro line ups and the iMac's running Intel. The last form factor to transition is the Mac Pro.

> For heavy-duty workstation workloads, M1 just doesn't cut it.

Perhaps you are right on this one for now. The M1 doesn't cut it for 'Apple's standards' for now but when the time comes for the Mac Pro to transition, it won't use an M1 chip, but probably an M2 / M3 chip.

Apple Silicon is the start of it all and M1 is only the beginning and is certainly not the last. So its worth waiting to see how the M1X, M2 or M3 Macs improve over M1.

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by NovaLuddite on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:29PM (#26910697)
I heard similar arguments in regards to initial performance with the transition from 68K to PPC and then again with PPC to Intel. The transition will probably be far quicker than you anticipate.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by jamesmcintyre on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:26PM (#26910678)
Why should Apple care if a small portion of its product lineup will still rely on Intel/AMD? Why shouldn't they put pressure on these chipmakers to defend their position. They have both the vertical integration and scale to push entire industries to innovate. If this serves to “wake up” Intel we all benefit (including Intel). Look into xscale and its relationship to the original iPhone circa 2006-2007, that didn't wale up Intel and arguably they lost out on billions and weakened their future outlook.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by plywoodtrees on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:17AM (#26910940)
Because of the cost of continuing to maintain software for that small fraction of the user base. Not only the core OS but the toolchain, and all their first party apps. And the difficulty of incentivizing and enabling third party developers to continue to support x86.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by cultofmetatron on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:28PM (#26910692)
The m1 is built specifically to sip power and run cool. You don't think apple could come up with an arm processor that can keep up or exceed desktop x86 when those constraints are removed?
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by artiscode on Friday April 23, 2021 @05:26AM (#26912754)
I'm not an expert, but isn't power efficiency the selling point of ARM? As in it runs efficiently, but there are diminishing returns to running it faster?
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by cultofmetatron on Friday April 23, 2021 @05:41PM (#26919551)
the power efficiency is a consequence of simpler circuitry. modern x86 chips devotes a fairly large amount of logic to translating the exposed cisc interface to an internal microcode that more resembles a risc system anyway. A risc chip doesn't need that.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by danaris on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:11PM (#26910624)
...And you think there'll never be an M2? Or M1X, or whatever branding Apple decides to put on their 32/64/128/???-core version that supports terabytes of RAM?
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by pfranz on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:34PM (#26910721)
I think the open question about the Mac Pro is the expandability. The trash can Mac Pro didn't do well and they went back with something with expansion slots. Is it worth it to Apple to build out and support everything necessary on the M1 platform for one low-margin line of computers? We'll find out in the next year.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by kalleboo on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:38PM (#26910742)
Even the 27" iMac has a 128 GB RAM SKU, so they're going to need to build a chip supporting external RAM regardless. External PCIe support already exists thanks to thunderbolt. So the architecture will be there, it'll just be a question of how expensive it is to scale up.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by tediousdemise on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:19PM (#26910656)
Gigacore
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by dvhh on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:27AM (#26910995)
16GB should be enough for everyone
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by GoOnThenDoTell on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:18PM (#26910652)
Until they publicly show they can make such a thing, there will be some scepticism
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by random5634 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:31PM (#26910706)
You realize Apple is designing against more advanced nodes than intel - and from where I stand intel has nothing competitive in small form factors
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by dev_tty01 on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:18AM (#26910943)
Why? Apple just demonstrated that they could do something that had previously been considered unrealistic. They've also been demonstrating massive annual performance gains for many years. For people who have been watching closely, they should have some credibility by now.
Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by tobyhinloopen on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:51AM (#26912545)
I believe Apple will release something groundbreaking again when they scale up the number of cores in that M1.

8 high performance 4 low performance cores? Yes please. Or maybe we’ll get 16-16

Re:Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model by agogdog on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:33PM (#26910714)
It seems odd to think that their first attempt at this, which largely consists of small consumer-level devices with little to no active cooling, is the best they're going to do.

Not to mention that they've already been dominating mobile SOC performance for half a decade as well.

There's no indication that they couldn't take on the pro market. They've clearly got the talent in place. It's likely that the market size is a bigger factor than capability.