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Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by jollybean on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:30PM (#26881999)
Let this be a lesson to all: intelligence does not in any way correlate with self awareness. It's likely that 'smart' people are just as likely to be unaware of their own follies or inabilities, I would argue, maybe more so as a lot of smart people tend to be 'inwardly focused' and less concerned about their direct environment.

This kind of thing happens all the time among Exec. level, but normally we'd expect it from Ford CEO, not Google types. It may be an odd sign of industry maturity.

That said, we shouldn't discount how often this kind of stuff actually does work. Watching the crowd at the Oracle conf. eat up Larry Ellison's huffery as through he was some kind of market visionary was the lesson at the other end of the spectrum, and it's that 'If you're rich and stand on stage and say something that 'sounds credible', a lot of people with just believe it'. Of course there's more to it than that.

But this one is Comedy Gold.

It might be a sign that Susan does not have a fully trusted team around her ... I would beg my boss in stark words to not do something so ridiculous to themselves.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by pulse7 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:53PM (#26882324)
"It might be a sign that Susan does not have a fully trusted team around her ..." => It might be a sign that team around her is afraid to tell her how ridiculous this is... Maybe they made good proposals in the past and where turned down and they now don't want to make good suggestions again...
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by waterhouse on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:43PM (#26882908)
I'm currently tickling my brain with the hypothesis that this is a next-level move by her team, to get her to publicly "emphasize the importance of free speech and the role that YouTube plays in protecting it", so that it will become more inconvenient for her (or for the rest of Youtube) to do more things that interfere with free speech.

Analogize this to publicly praising a corrupt general for doing or planning something good that he hasn't actually been doing. It's difficult for him to turn down the praise ("No, I seriously haven't done anything to deserve this"), and meanwhile it focuses eyes on him and pressures him to actually do the thing. I read about the tactic in a fictional book once, I'm sure it works. :-)

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by cbozeman on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:50PM (#26882980)
Well that won't work... former President Barack Obama received the Nobel Peace prize but he went on to involve the United States in additional foreign wars and went ham with drone strikes.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by DSingularity on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:33PM (#26883401)
Perfect example. He also took programs to the next level — eg first president to authorize the US to assassinate its own citizens!
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by barbacoa on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:45PM (#26884460)
And signed a law authorizing indefinite detention of american citizens without trial.

Surprised he didn't win any champion of due process awards.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by pupdogg on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:01PM (#26884575)
Add let’s not forget the fact that he put digital surveillance on steroids! People tend to forget Snowden real easily nowadays
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by spicyramen on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:12PM (#26884660)
And allowed the war on drugs to escalate via fast and furious program
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by adamrezich on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:04PM (#26884977)
yo but despite everything listed above, like, everyone loved him when he was the sitting President

many still think he's one of the greatest Presidents of all time

man what is up with that tho

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by perl4ever on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:11AM (#26885344)
I saw an article recently where some school was being renamed for the sort of reasons people call "cancel culture" these days and they explicitly rejected renaming it after Obama, because he was an "oppressor" due to the (allegedly very vigorous) deportation of undocumented immigrants during his terms.

For me, he's the greatest President because of the ACA.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by cbozeman on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:49AM (#26887383)
> For me, he's the greatest President because of the ACA.

This is the very definition of uncritical, subjective thinking. :\

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by pupdogg on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:23AM (#26890066)
Precisely this! Not having any insurance in my late 20s, I voted for him thinking ACA was for the good of people. Then I got married, had 2 kids, business flourished, and purchased a house only to realize that ACA accounts for half of my mortgage. Currently paying $1k per month with all healthy members and without any pre-existing conditions!
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by perl4ever on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:04AM (#26890600)
What do you think of senior citizens who don't think they should have to pay school taxes?
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by pupdogg on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:14AM (#26890737)
I think that all people have a right to their opinion. But the minute your opinion becomes an order and starts scratching my turf, I got a problem with that!
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by perl4ever on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @07:09PM (#26896533)
If you meant to respond to me, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. What are you comparing?

It's not a matter of opinion that you have to pay property taxes. It is a matter of opinion that you should have health insurance - as you may recall there isn't even a nominal financial penalty for not doing so any more.

But based on your comments so far, you see the situation as the opposite? I don't understand what you think you are being ordered to do.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by setpatchaddress on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:17AM (#26885679)
Greater than FDR? You sure about that?

Obama sucked at his job. Like, nearly Carter-level blindness to political reality, but with more personal arrogance. Obama was better than Shrub. Shrub was a war criminal, so you'd have to hope Obama was better.

The ACA was emblematic of Obama's unwillingness to lift a finger to help build the Democratic grassroots. The Democrats in Congress allowed the ACA to be loaded with poison pills due to Obama's insistence on a bipartisan vote. The result: no votes from the Gops, but it did cause the Democrats to lose the House since -- due to the Gop amendments -- the good parts didn't kick in until well after the midterm elections and the bad parts started immediately.

So popular was the ACA, in the end, that it only survived the Trump years because McCain lost his temper on the day of the Senate vote to repeal it.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by perl4ever on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:17PM (#26910039)
I don't compare him to FDR, because I have no real perspective on presidents way before I was born. I don't know if he was better than Millard Fillmore either. I do know many people hated FDR with a passion and probably still do to the extent they are still alive.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by Leparamour on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:29AM (#26885742)
It's easy to be evil when you have a benevolent press on your side. Still people think Obama's biggest scandals were wearing a tan suit and ordering Dijon mustard.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by specialist on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:05PM (#26884608)
Yup. Ditto Kissinger, Arafat / Ragin / Peres. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_Peace_Prize_la...

To say nothing of the source of the prize itself.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:04AM (#26885313)
That's more the fault of the Nobel committee. You can't hamstring a leader by giving them an award for no reason and hoping that affects their decision making in the future.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by vkou on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:30AM (#26885748)
The Nobel peace prize was not for anything he did, it was the committee raising a large middle finger at the former Bush regime.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by cbozeman on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:52AM (#26887398)
Bush started wars in two countries, Obama started wars in another five. The fact they didn't rescind the prize is disgusting, and shows you what a joke the committee is, as well as the award itself.

What's most disgusting is that it was a political ploy based on the fact that President Obama was America's first black president. There's no other logical conclusion that any thinking person could arrive at, because at the time he received it, he had done, quite literally, almost nothing of substance.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by vkou on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:24PM (#26891752)
As I said - it was a rebuke of Bush. The United States was at a very low point in world public opinion, thanks to his efforts at the time.

None of this excuses the imperial adventures that followed. Libya's still in a civil war, by the way. (Although to be fair to Obama, Europe was chomping at the bit to go to war with it.)

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ajxs on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:53PM (#26883018)
> "...so that it will become more inconvenient for her (or for the rest of Youtube) to do more things that interfere with free speech."

This is a good theory, I don't think it reflects the situation though. She used her 'acceptance speech' for this absurd accolade to emphasise the importance of censorship in ensuring freedom, that war is peace, freedom is slavery, so on so on. If this was the aim, it clearly didn't work.

Given her speech, the irony is either totally lost on her, or she legitimately thinks that YouTube is such a monolithic entity that the truth is whatever she says it is.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by specialist on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:07PM (#26884615)
aka Freedom Speeches™
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by zo1 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:56AM (#26886594)
Censorship is Freedom!
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by slickrick216 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:30PM (#26882749)
It might be worse. They could actually believe they are promoting freedom of expression by silencing people. Pushed straight past delusion into faith.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by itronitron on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:39PM (#26882120)
It also indicates to me that the leadership at Alphabet is totally out to lunch. I would have thought they had the sense to stop this but apparently not.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by dehrmann on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:27PM (#26885111)
You mean the leadership that put Google cofounder Sergey Brin's sister-in-law in charge of Youtube?
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by thu2111 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:53AM (#26886568)
And not only sister in law. Executive leader of that highly successful project, Google Video, which ended with Wojcicki being so beaten that she had to tell Google management to buy her only competitor for over a billion dollars.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by biofox on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:51AM (#26886944)
I recall Google Video being the better platform when it was first released. Had a clear interface, integrated with google search, and better performance. I have no idea how Google failed to gain the lead.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by thu2111 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:41AM (#26887325)
Some engineers wrote a couple of insightful internal post-mortems about Google Video after the YouTube acquisition. It's telling, I think, that the deep analysis of what went wrong came from front-line engineers rather than the executives you'd be expecting to produce it as part of their job. I read them many years ago so what follows might be a bit garbled by time and bad memory, but the gist of it went like this:

1. YouTube bet on user generated content. One of Wojcicki's primary decisions was to focus on commercial high-end content by trying to cut deals with firms like Disney.

2. YouTube bet on Flash Video. Google Video used a VLC-based browser plugin that never worked as well and didn't have as much distribution. This was partly driven by the first decision, because Flash didn't support the video DRM that movie houses wanted, and was optimised for small low bandwidth, "postage stamp" sized video instead of high-def full screen that commercial content wanted. YouTube had no formal strategy around commercial content beyond turning a blind eye towards the piracy on their platform, that let them outsource their video tech to Macromedia, who were quite good at it.

3. YouTube bet on social. They had comments, thumbs up, thumbs down, channels and other social features when Google Video was still a search engine badly welded to a video store. Google didn't "get" social at that time and GV/Wojcicki saw it as a net negative anyway because does Disney really want their premium content to be shown next to a bunch of inane comments from anonymous trolls?

4. YouTube was implemented in Python. Google Video was implemented in C++. Python allowed the YT guys to iterate way faster and throw features out the door way faster, at a cost in performance and reliability. But a social website doesn't really need much reliability and whilst the performance costs were killing them, Google bailed them out after the purchase by rewriting and porting large parts of their stack to their in house tech.

I think those were the main problems identified in the post-mortems.

What's interesting is that of course the general themes here are identical to what is causing YouTube problems now. Wojcicki was obsessed with professional/authoritative content. It killed Google Video then because there was a competitor who bet on the little guy, but now she controls that competitor she's doing it all over again. YT is actively suppressing the little guys in favour of big media, they've added a video store, their recommendations aren't social anymore but rather just promoting whatever political elites are saying today, she's removing other social features like downvotes, etc etc. She never learned anything from her prior failure, and why would she? When Vic G failed at Google+ he was immediately fired, but Wojcicki cannot be penalised for failure. Whether that's due to her familial connections, her gender or what is hard to say, but the contrast between her and what happened to other execs that failed to beat their competition is hard not to notice.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by flippinburgers on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:32AM (#26890152)
Thumbs up, thumbs down, and comments. The very things that she would still like to see go away.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by iptpus on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:46AM (#26901642)
It appears that is somewhat underway. Youtube is at least experimenting with not having dislikes.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/31/youtube-is-testing-removal-of-...

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by happynacho on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:34AM (#26891032)
as well as any user content that isn't aligned with the mainstream CorrectThink™
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by Grustaf on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:16PM (#26882591)
I think it says much more about how they see the consumers. They're probably counting on 99% of people not noticing the absurdity of it, or the irony in boasting about your industrial scale censorship when accepting your free speech award.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by SiVal on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:07PM (#26884617)
They are counting on people not noticing the absurdity, because they don't notice it themselves. They live in an ideological bubble where those who are True Believers prosper and heretics are punished, so even those who disagree have to go along and hope they aren't discovered. Or they have to leave. So no one inside will be heard to disagree. So anyone on the outside who disagrees with what we all agree is true is spreading "misinformation", according to everyone on the inside who feels able to speak freely. Surely it is no impediment to the free expression of truth to ban lies, right? Right! Does anyone here disagree? No? Of course not. Only a nazi would object to preventing the spreading of lies.

So in the Puritan Village, the ministers give themselves freedom of religion awards for their contributions to freeing the True Religion from all impediments to its universal imposition.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by Grustaf on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:01AM (#26885904)
True, that’s probably part of it!
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by belval on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:25PM (#26882685)
Yeah but even then I feel it shows they do not understand their audience. Hating on Javascript/consoles/Windows/OS X is something we nerds do. Free speech on YouTube is something I've seen discussed in friends groups that I would consider "normal people".
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by geoduck14 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:12AM (#26889196)
To be fair, I wouldn't have noticed the award if it wasn't for HN
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by SuoDuanDao on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:18AM (#26889267)
As I like to summarise it, 'the smarter someone is, the dumber beliefs they can rationalise'.

Combine that observation with the Flynn effect and it explains why common sense is never as common as it used to be... Maybe Google's best bet at this point is to hire people with a wide diversity of IQ scores.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by uvnq on Thursday April 22, 2021 @04:26AM (#26900249)
I wish I could save this comment somehow. That quote seems extremely useful
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by SuoDuanDao on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:14AM (#26903665)
Thank you for that compliment! You actually can save it, if you click a comment's time stamp you can then click 'favourite' and it'll show up on a list in your profile.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by uvnq on Thursday April 22, 2021 @02:51PM (#26906581)
Oh neat, thanks! Saved.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by JCDenton2052 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:03AM (#26887037)
If you were willing to speak truth to power like that, you would not be in her team in the first place.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by austincheney on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @07:21PM (#26883312)
> but normally we'd expect it from Ford CEO, not Google types.

Why? How do you see a distinction there?

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ARandomerDude on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:33AM (#26885763)
Ford = internal combustion = bad people.

Google = San Francisco = good people.

It's just SV patting itself on the back for being woke and more virtuous than you.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by IG_Semmelweiss on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:41PM (#26884435)
Not parent but would assume that "google types" are more likely engineers first, with the assumption that those types are likely likely to have spatial / problem solvin awareness.

Contrast Vs traditional traditional CEOs more likely to be hired on the basis of their network and charistma vs actual engineering chops?

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by resfirestar on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:49PM (#26894518)
Susan Wojcicki started out as a marketing manager, not an engineer. By contrast Mary Barra, the CEO of GM, started out as an assembly line worker and moved up through engineering positions into management. I think people have some pretty backwards assumptions about tech vs traditional industry.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by thu2111 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:55AM (#26886586)
Wojcicki is not an engineer. Her background is marketing.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by quanto on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:35AM (#26887282)
Even if the Google types have better spatial/technical problem solving skills, how does that translate to self-awareness?
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by quanto on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:32AM (#26887242)
The Hacker News crowd (mostly the Google types) endorsing the statement implying the Google types are somehow superior to the Ford types itself shows the lack of self-awareness for the Google types.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by paganel on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:37PM (#26882834)
> It's likely that 'smart' people are just as likely to be unaware of their own follies or inabilities,

Just look at the recent debacle with the proposed (and now thankfully failed) football SuperLeague in Europe, you have 12 billionaire owners thinking that they could go ahead with killing the spirit of the game that is ingrained in the social fabric of the continent just like that, almost by fiat.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by briantakita on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:55PM (#26885258)
Nowdays, if somebody wins an award, they are the exact opposite. We live is opposite world now.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by tonyjstark on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:38AM (#26886482)
I have something that I call 'Potato-Law' for this.

It's like how the potatoes in discounters always say 'premium quality' or 'premium potatoes' but if they are, they wouldn't be so cheap or you couldn't buy them at the discounter. OTOH, if you go to a specialty goods shop, they don't write premium on their products. So if something has to be labeled on how good it is, it's probably not.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by durnygbur on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:13AM (#26887095)
Right in the crotch. I recently put small bag of potatoes in the shopping cart and only back home and from the price on the receipt I learned they are "premium potatoes". So pissed off.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by xxs on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:34AM (#26887268)
The part it was 'posted'/awarded on the day a famous Austrian painter (who would have not approved of Photoshop) was born, makes it even better.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by cryptica on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @05:41PM (#26882147)
I would even make the case that self-awareness and success may be inversely correlated in fact.

I've heard many people say similar things over the years... Why is that? Is it some kind of kin selection? Is this total lack of self-awareness a requirement for getting into positions of power?

It's so obvious, I even wonder if they're just pretending to be hypocrites? It seems so simple and obvious, how can they not see the logical contradiction?

Are most of our leaders complete nutjobs?

Maybe humanity is a hierarchy with all the nutjobs at the top, mirroring back their insanity inside their filter bubbles; not realizing that their lives have nothing to do with reality.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by jollybean on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:46PM (#26882942)
It's probably a lop sided u-shape. Most people lacking in self-awareness are either really smart or true outcasts, with 'high conscientious + good communicators' occupying most middle management ... but it does take a kind of hubris sometimes to overlook one's faults, even worse, to completely ignore them otherwise. Without being controversial I see hints of this in Jobs, Ellison, Trump, Musk, Page, Zuck etc. (again I'm not condemning here, if any one of us put our thoughts online consistently there'd be a few we would seriously regret).
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by toomanybeersies on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:53AM (#26885550)
> It's likely that 'smart' people are just as likely to be unaware of their own follies or inabilities

We have a word for that: Hubris

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by maybelsyrup on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:51AM (#26885539)
This one of the better comments I've seen on this website. I actually copy-and-pasted it into my notes file. Kudos
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by rpastuszak on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:06AM (#26887052)
(1) YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Award (2) Sponsored by YouTube

More people will hear about the first part of that sentence so I guess it's still somewhat advantageous to them?

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by zouhair on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @06:54PM (#26883030)
"Smart" and "educated" people are the easiest to fool[0].

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbwWL5ezA4g

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @09:39PM (#26884419)
“Why you fool, it's the educated reader who CAN be gulled. All our difficulty comes with the others. When did you meet a workman who believes the papers? He takes it for granted that they're all propaganda and skips the leading articles. He buys his paper for the football results and the little paragraphs about girls falling out of windows and corpses found in Mayfair flats. He is our problem. We have to recondition him. But the educated public, the people who read the high-brow weeklies, don't need reconditioning. They're all right already. They'll believe anything.”

― C.S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by willis936 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:21PM (#26884715)
A fun hypothetical, but how smart do you think the average Q anon believer is? Reality isn’t as nice on the ears as the fantasy of a poet is.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by pitay on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @10:53PM (#26884896)
Q anon believers are at most are a tiny proportion of who is described by that. Judging an entire population by the worst few of them that you can think of, is questionable.

Also, you don't really know the distribution of where these 'believers' came from.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by SuoDuanDao on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @09:33AM (#26889451)
Today, or when Q first showed up? I happened to have a front row seat to the first few Q threads and it began as a highly intellectual set of puzzles with the community providing a lot of the weird coincidences that make for an interesting conspiracy theory. One might say that the average Q believer in the first few months was a poet. Didn't remain that way of course.

Edit: And come to think of it, that kind of intellectual soft flex is actually exactly the kind of thing the Lewis quote refers to, just presented in a different venue. It's my understanding Daesh recruitment propaganda has a similar tone.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:24PM (#26885098)
For sure, the world is much more complicated and the inability to read between the lines and not taking everything at face value certainly isn't limited to "educated people". But there is a lot of truth to this quote nonetheless. For what it's worth, all of those wacky theories about Q-anon or even flat earth don't beat the fact that people somehow managed to subvert and obscure the fundamental truth about nature that's shared between every living being, reproduction, and made educated people believe that biological sex is simply irrelevant or not even a valid concept. Covid's another thing, I get that there are wacky theories about that too, but there are many pretentious, insufferable people who are acting like they're better than everyone else, because they blindly believe any propaganda about it that's pushed by the "official sources".
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by willis936 on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @11:36PM (#26885160)
You’re sending me a lot of red flags, so I’m hesitant to engage, but I feel the need to point out that defending the rights of the individual is not motivated by some desire to defer to authority on how one should orient themselves sexually. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

The quote has no truth. It’s a fantasy used as anti-intellectual propaganda. Anyone can say a clever platitude.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:11AM (#26885346)
I haven't said anything about the motivations behind it. It's probably just a feeling that you're doing something good. But that's basically what I'm talking about, the biological sex is obscured with words like "orientation" or "identity", despite that the premise of this entire theory at least used to be that sex, gender and orientation are separate things. You can't change your biological sex, it's immutable. If you were born as a man, you won't be able to bear a child. It's supposedly defending individual rights with what is a plain deception. I cannot even imagine any example that would top that in terms of what wacky theories people could believe.

I'm sure that criticizing Q-anon is a red flag too for some people.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by perl4ever on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:39AM (#26885470)
>You can't change your biological sex, it's immutable.

I assume you mean nobody can presently create fully functional organs for someone that wasn't born with them. I don't know who disputes this.

But when you make such a declaration, it sounds (to some) like you are denying biological reality yourself; claiming that there is no such thing as intersex, that chromosomes are always in alignment with physical characteristics, and so on. There are complex processes necessary for the emergence of typical characteristics, and just because it's strongly bimodal doesn't mean that's 100%. Anyone educated knows it isn't, completely apart from politics.

If one agrees that such things are well-known for a long time and not controversial, and that there appear to be gender related differences in the brain, then it's not reasonable to declare that "an X brain in a Y body" is impossible or delusional. You can't know, and it's particularly antisocial to go around telling people stuff about themselves when you can't possibly have rational grounds for it.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:13AM (#26885660)
Find me an intersex person that can both bear a child and impregnate a woman. From my understanding, it's still falls under either this or the other, not a literal third sex. And even if, that's a tiny fraction of what already is a tiny fraction of intersex people. It does not disprove the general notion and it does not justify changing the entire culture around it and basically terrorizing people who are stating these basic facts. You could be born with six fingers and that doesn't invalidate the fact that human species have 5 fingers at each hand.

And yeah, I talked to people who were saying that biological sex doesn't exist and gender is all there is to it.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:26AM (#26886035)
> Find me an intersex person that can both bear a child and impregnate a woman.

If male == can sire children and female == can bear children, then infertile people don't have a sex which is nonsense.

> It does not disprove the general notion

Yes, it does. Counterexamples do that.

> You could be born with six fingers and that doesn't invalidate the fact that human species have 5 fingers at each hand.

Yes, it would. Humans only usually have 5 fingers on each hand. But it isn't important to emphasize that there are 6-fingered humans because no one denies that 6-fingered humans are humans to start with.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @02:53AM (#26886194)
> If male == can sire children and female == can bear children, then infertile people don't have a sex which is nonsense.

Your conclusion is nonsense, the premise is not. A broken computer is still in essence a computer, even if it can't actually do any computing as a result.

> Yes, it would. Humans only usually have 5 fingers on each hand. But it isn't important to emphasize that there are 6-fingered humans because no one denies that 6-fingered humans are humans to start with.

It's some kind of genetic disorder, an anomaly. With your standard you can't describe anything, as almost nothing is true 100% of the time.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:39AM (#26886865)
> Your conclusion is nonsense, the premise is not.

My conclusion is derived from the premise. Since it's nonsense so is the premise.

> A broken computer is still in essence a computer, even if it can't actually do any computing as a result.

An infertile woman is broken then?

> It's some kind of genetic disorder, an anomaly. With your standard you can't describe anything, as almost nothing is true 100% of the time.

Of course you can. 100% of non-broken computers can be used for computing -- the "non-broken" part is usually implied when talking about them. Same for lots of other categories. If the members of a category don't have any shared traits -- i.e. something that is true for all of them -- then what is it even useful for?

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:23AM (#26887176)
> An infertile woman is broken then?

I don't know if I would necessarily use this particular word as it's mostly associated with lifeless objects, but in a sense - yes. Similarly to how having a disability or being an amputee is, for the lack of a better term, being "broken", as your body fails to function is some manner. Life is more nuanced and it's not all about that of course, but you get the idea.

> Of course you can. 100% of non-broken computers can be used for computing -- the "non-broken" part is usually implied when talking about them.

So a broken computer is no longer a computer? I'm too stupid to delve into a philosophical debate about what truly makes a thing a thing, but I just don't accept that.

Even still, there is always a chance that the computer will randomly malfunction and do something unexpected at any time. Unlikely, but possible. So you can never say for sure that an operation of 2 + 2 will result in 4.

> If the members of a category don't have any shared traits -- i.e. something that is true for all of them -- then what is it even useful for?

If it's accurate enough then it's useful for making predictions. You know, science and stuff.

I wonder, how would you describe what a 'human' is?

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:21AM (#26890046)
> Even still, there is always a chance that the computer will randomly malfunction and do something unexpected at any time. Unlikely, but possible. So you can never say for sure that an operation of 2 + 2 will result in 4.

Your point?

> If it's accurate enough then it's useful for making predictions. You know, science and stuff.

If there is a counterexample to a scientific hypothesis, it's considered falsified. Not "useful for making predictions", but simply wrong.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:57AM (#26890491)
> no one denies that 6-fingered humans are humans to start with

I see what your issue is. I haven't noticed this previously, but I think you're just attacking a straw man at this point. Rarely you can say something with 100% certainty and science takes account for that. It's fine to make generalizations. If we didn't do that and only sought absolute truths, we wouldn't get too far and it'd invalidate entire fields of science.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:16PM (#26895549)
You cannot prove a hypothesis with 100% certainty, that is true. But you can falsify it – with even a single counterexample – and then you are certain it is false. Anything else is pseudoscience.

And it's particularly not okay to make generalizations about people. That's how you get sexism, sexism and other bigotry.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by gjm11 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:57AM (#26891345)
I've never heard anyone claim that biological sex is irrelevant or not a valid concept. (I'm sure some people do, just as some people believe Barack Obama was born in Kenya. But I don't see any sign that it's a widespread belief.)

But in many contexts biological sex is irrelevant. There's room to debate exactly what contexts -- e.g., in professional sports that are segregated by sex so that women can have competitions in which they aren't obliterated by men who are just stronger, you might want to keep people with Y chromosomes out of the women's events, or maybe you should do that by measuring testosterone levels or something. But by and large, if you aren't (1) providing medical care to someone or (2) having sex with them, you get better outcomes for everyone by paying attention to how they prefer to live than to their chromosomes when those diverge.

"But people are getting cancelled just for saying that biological sex is real!" Eh, no. But to whatever degree anything like that is happening, a key part of the reason is that it turns out that people who make a big deal about how biological sex is real almost always actually have a bigger agenda that goes way beyond affirming that biological sex is real. If e.g. you want to keep trans women out of women's public bathrooms, or make sure gender-dysphoric teenagers aren't put on puberty blockers, or not have to call someone "he" if they look more like a "she" to you -- none of those things follow from "biological sex is real".

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:54PM (#26892190)
Is CNN enough?

https://archive.md/wWaat#selection-1333.275-1347.126

> The orders also reference "biological sex," a disputed term that refers to the sex as listed on students' original birth certificates.

> It's not possible to know a person's gender identity at birth, and there is no consensus criteria for assigning sex at birth.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by gjm11 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:25PM (#26894281)
I think there's an ambiguity here. Let's give names to some more specific things.

Proposition A: "Chromosomes, genitals, and sex hormones are real things. For the large majority of people, each of these falls into one of two fairly well separated classes, and they agree with one another. In some contexts -- e.g., providing someone with medical care, or having sex with them, or predicting how much weight they will be able to lift if they train hard -- these things provide useful information."

Proposition B: "The term 'biological sex' has a clear and universally agreed-on meaning, and refers to something that is useful in some contexts, as in Proposition A."

Proposition C: "The term 'biological sex' has a clear and universally agreed-on meaning, and refers to something that is useful in some contexts, and is the only thing we should care about when deciding whether to refer to someone as a man or a woman, or choosing what pronouns to use for them, or deciding what contests they can enter, what bathrooms they can use, etc."

Proposition A is uncontroversially true, and (I claim) essentially no one disagrees with it.

Proposition B is fairly uncontroversially false, because in fact there isn't a universally-agreed way to decide someone's "biological sex" in complicated cases such as when they have complete androgen insensitivity. But for many purposes it's approximately true.

The bit of Proposition C that goes beyond Proposition B is highly controversial.

I originally took your statements about "biological sex" to be expressing Proposition A. The author of the CNN article is denying Proposition B.

Perhaps you always meant Proposition B (or even Proposition C), in which case I retract my statement that no one disagrees with that, but instead point out the bit of Proposition B that's controversial is not expressing a "fundamental truth" about reproduction but a highly disputable claim about language, and that the further bits of Proposition C that are controversial are again not expressing "fundamental truths" about reproduction but controversial and essentially political claims about how we should relate to people for whom "biological sex" and "gender identity" don't tell a single simple coherent story.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by lrdd on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:15PM (#26894865)
Out of interest, on proposition B why can we not claim that the presence of a Y chromosome in your DNA makes you a "biological male" and the absence makes you a "biological female". That should be a binary division. (Where these terms are only used in the contexts you describe as being useful; no disagreements there).
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by gjm11 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:16PM (#26895545)
You absolutely can claim that, and it gives a nice clean division into two classes, that's sometimes useful and usually lines up with other assessments of sex and gender.

But it's not the only way to do it, and if you do that you won't necessarily agree with other people about a person's "biological sex".

For instance, there is a condition called "complete androgen insensitivity syndrome". A person with CAIS has one X and one Y chromosome, just like a typical man, and they produce male sex hormones much like a typical man does. (Maybe exactly the same? I'm not sure whether there are feedback loops that might go wrong.) But the cells in their body that are meant to respond to those hormones don't, and as a result a person with CAIS looks pretty much exactly like a typical woman does. Breasts, mostly-normal-female genitalia, not much body hair, higher-pitched voice, etc. But^2 they don't have a uterus, they aren't fertile (either "as" male or female), and there are internal genital differences that may have adverse consequences for their sex life if nothing is done about them.

If you just go by chromosomes, you will classify people with CAIS as male. But these people are all assigned female at birth, and they usually have no idea until puberty that there is anything at all unusual about their sex or gender. Their gender identity is almost always F rather than M, and they are generally heterosexual in the sense of being attracted to men.

So, what is the "biological sex" of someone with CAIS? I think several answers are defensible, but none is clearly correct or universally agreed. So "biological sex" is not a term with a clear-cut meaning in every case, contrary to "Proposition B".

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:51AM (#26885854)
What other people's genitals and reproductive organs look like is generally none of your business. In other words, their sex is irrelevant.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @03:07AM (#26886296)
I'm not sure how to respond other that it's interesting how people switched from accusing everyone of being ignorant to demanding from them to be ignorant. Or was it always some kind of doublespeak? Not sure.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:20AM (#26886756)
Respect for other's privacy has never been considered ignorance, even if it may match a dictionary definition.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:28AM (#26887210)
I'm a fairly open minded person and I can change my mind if something makes sense to me. I assumed that maybe here I will find someone who can explain this thing to me, but so far I'm not impressed. The mean of perpetuating our species seems to be a too important detail to accept "it's none of your business" as an answer. I also think that if it's taught to children then it is a public matter.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @10:15AM (#26889983)
Other people's bodies are not your means of anything.

> I'm a fairly open minded person

Open minded people don't need to say that.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by ttt0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @11:01AM (#26890543)
That's true, because a 100% open minded person would believe anything uncritically, without questioning it. That's why I said fairly open minded. But if you refuse to discuss it then what else can I say.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by anoncake on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @05:24PM (#26895616)
I have nothing to discuss with someone who thinks they have some sort of collectivist claim on other people's genitals.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by zouhair on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:54PM (#26895324)
I know of Doctors who believe homeopathy or acupuncture works.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by slig on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:13PM (#26883743)
That explains so much.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by bobthechef on Tuesday April 20, 2021 @08:19PM (#26883799)
"Smart" is not "wise" (or virtuous). We should emphasize the value of the later.
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by truth_ on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @12:27AM (#26885418)
"Smart" and "intelligent" people are just people born in relative financial ease with enough time to focus on studies and very likely with parents in academia or similar fields who made their children aware of the inner workings of the fields.

Physics PhD people are not people fallen from skies with a little extra brain. They just got the time, opportunity, and tips to be there. Same goes for other "smart" people. There are, of course, exceptions like von Neuman, Turing, Feynman, Einstein, etc. But these people are exceptions. Perceptions abourt other people in those fields should not be formed with the image of these guys.

Source: very first hand experiences.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by dash2 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @04:42AM (#26886883)
That's not what the science says: https://www.nature.com/articles/mp2017121
Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by truth_ on Sunday April 25, 2021 @04:32PM (#26936404)
The abstract mentions people with 170 average IQ. Hawking had 169 IIRC. Physics PhDs are averagely on the range 130~145. That's much lower than people on the study.

IQ is not taken seriously as a measure of intelligence or success anymore. And people can be trained to score high on IQ tests.

On the debate of Nature vs. Nurture, I do not think that inherent intelligence viz. good genes do not play a role. But I tend to belive that nurture has a larger to play.

Re:YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki Gets 'Freedom Expression' Awar... by open0 on Wednesday April 21, 2021 @01:09AM (#26885631)
100% true, these people are not smart at all. They are parasites and criminals that are destroying society and they must be stopped. Youtube manipulates what people see all over the world and most of it is pure trash.