News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by apples_oranges on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @04:52AM (#26804562)
We need to stop building a world without trust. Always checking, ensuring, surveilling (,mining on a blockchain), this is anti-human and will only lead to unhappiness, burnout, depression. It's no way to live unless we want to be like the Borg eventually.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by dandanua on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:07AM (#26804660)
Unfortunately, we've reached a no return point. The next natural stage will be the raise of fascist states. With mass surveillance, AI, and nuclear weapons it will be almost impossible to overthrow them.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by novaRom on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:13AM (#26805040)
Not sure why people downvote you. This stage is clearly happening. People go to prison for just retweets or a comment in social networks. And how many high rank officials are actually compromised? It's clear and every day it's worse.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by effingwewt on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @02:40PM (#26811228)
Indeed, we are there already. You can lose your job/wellbeing/life for wrongthink, the power unbalance between the haves and have nots gets worse by the day.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by da_big_ghey on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:43AM (#26804859)
You have overestimate that there is no overthrow of these. Geurilla war in Vietnam, Midle East, other have been fight best militarys with succeeding. But here we also have reason why we are needing for to keep gun rights, and for to end existing infringment (e.g. no restricting on automatics).
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by ajuc on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:28AM (#26805138)
Overthrowing the government is not the same as defending against invasion.

When you invade somebody and lose - you return to status quo (with some bad diplomatic consequences but still). There's a point past which it doesn't make sense to escalate.

When your citizens try to overthrow you and you lose - you and your family are dead soon. There's no thing that autocratic government won't do to avoid being overthrown.

As for fantasies of gun rights preventing fascism - it didn't historically (see Italy where before Mussolini the gun laws were very loose). Nor did fascism necessarily resulted in stricter gun control (in Germany Hitler actually loosened the gun laws after he took control). It frankly doesn't matter.

The simple fact is - in a developed country uprisings have 0 chance of winning against a professional army. Hand guns change nothing. The only way to win is to persuade the army to take your side. Which usually happens when the country doesn't have enough money to buy their loyalty.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by iso1210 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:51AM (#26804910)
Its a reason you need to keep the people in your military against the totalitarianists.

US police officers kill about 1000 people a year, guns don't seem to protect them.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by da_big_ghey on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:54AM (#26804921)
Yes you are right on this. Policeman killing is random in most case, so not surprpse here. Also one may not be using gun against police; I am presuming that in rebelion one may, state monopoley on force is going out the window.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by iso1210 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:56AM (#26805357)
The state has no monopoly on force. The US armed forces are made up of US citizens. They are sworn to defend the constitution against all threats, foreign and domestic. That could include a president and congress, it could include corporations, it could include Canada.

The narrative of armed citizens operating in a structure to defend citizens and the constitution works fine if you don't have armed citizens operating in a structure to defend citizens and the constitution.

If you lose hearts and minds of one group armed US citizens (the military), why is your group of armed citizens any more justified?

If you don't lose it, why do you need the armaments?

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by dalbasal on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:42AM (#26805261)
One of the most important philosophers of enlightenment/industrial era was Jeremy Bentham... of utilitarian fame.

He designed a building called a Panopticon, a design for a factory that allows many workers to be monitored closely by managers. He also thought it would make a good design for prisons, another interest areas. A lot of modern prisons resemble/derive from the Panopticon.

We need to remember that not everything is a new problem. Digitisation creates new privacy avenues which can be violate or defend. The bigger picture often stays the same. Solving problems by exercising more rigorous control over workers... in ways they don't like.

I think many HN-ers have a certain class blindness about these issues. A lot of jobs require urine tests, monitor employee's screens, motivate using cctv, etc. Some jobs actually require this. Often though, it's just a class thing. Urine tests for CS agents and warehouse workers. None for programmers.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:56AM (#26805350)
The core difference that makes this new problem more worrying is, Panopticon only created a perception of being constantly watched. The managers/guards could see into every cell, but not all of them at the same time - but the workers/prisoners couldn't know if they're being watched at any given moment, so they had to assume they were.

As bad as it is, it's still better than actually being constantly watched.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by dalbasal on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @10:36AM (#26807666)
Well... we'll see. It's not the first time for "actually being constantly watched" either. eg stazi/etc.

There is somewhat of a distinction between spying to sell you papmers and spying to maintain political power/stability. The latter can get bad fast. Ad businesses can be creepy, but their motivation is mostly just to sell you stuff. In both cases, it doesn't feel great at first... but you do get used to it.

Spying to make you sell pampers... that can go either way. Whatever lock-in powers Apple or FB wield... bosses have more power over employees than retailers over consumers. Add privacy belligerence to labour relations... third party ecosystems.

don't panic.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by GuB-42 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:32AM (#26805173)
That's what you get with larger organizations. But these large organization is what allows for the specialization and economies of scale that make up modern civilization.

For example, if you go to some big box store and forget to make you pay for something, I don't know many people who will point out the mistake and pay their due. The same people will probably be more inclined to do so if the shop in question is a small shop and they know the owner personally, even more so if he is an actual friend.

And the level of trust reflects that. Big box stores will monitor everything, because they know their customers can't be trusted, while friends will not even keep tabs. At the highest level, I don't know any country that trust their citizens when it comes to paying taxes, for good reason. There is an entire industry dedicated to more or less legal tax avoidance, opposed by an army of legislators and inspectors.

We have lost trust long ago. I'd say the turning point is the invention of the lock, thousands of years ago. I mean, isn't the lock and its information counterpart, cryptography, a symbol of distrust? For me, it is, but it is also what allows us to be secure among people we don't know.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:53AM (#26805334)
You're right with the varying amounts of trust in different social structures, but recent developments in and adjacent to the crypto space are a whole new level of lack of trust.

The country may not trust their citizens when it comes to paying taxes, but it's not an absolute lack of trust. They set up regulations outlining rules and punishments, back them with various enforcement mechanisms, and... they trust it's enough for vast majority of the citizens.

They trust most people will be nudged towards paying the right amount of taxes - that's why they don't generally surveil every single transaction you're making. It's hard for a regular person to get on the IRS radar in a way other than interacting with government services in a weird way somehow. When they notice something suspicious, they will follow up, but the process set in the aforementioned laws is again very much trust-based, giving the suspect the ability to explain themselves at various stages, and not digging through one's entire life until late in the process. It's based on a reasonable assumption that most of the issues a country's IRS would flag are honest mistakes.

Same with every other process in most (all?) societies. There are directions, nudges, deterrents. Not total surveillance. But the newest trends in technology businesses seem to desperately want to move us towards the latter.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by spacemanmatt on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:37AM (#26805222)
Big box stores are also more likely to be associated with a lobbying group on their behalf, loss prevention scandals, and other things that deteriorate public trust.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by Gregoriy on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:28AM (#26805142)
I had a team of 10, two of them are remote, we recruted a third person, we work 40 hours a week, usually more or less flexible. We have recruted another person, after 6 month of work with him i have noticed some strange delays, like take too much time to respond etc, we work in pretty much relaxed environement so it was not visible very much. After a quick search i have found his freelance account and proposed him to do some job, he agreed and did so during his active working hours, double pay, how do i suppose counter that ?
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by GuB-42 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:56AM (#26805353)
Fire him, obviously.

But that's an interesting example. The guy is doing a poor job, so if you want to be impartial, you should fire him for not meeting your expectations.

But it is natural to understand why he is doing a poor job. I mean, maybe it is just a temporary personal issue (ex: sick kids), or maybe just not his fault (ex: task more complex than expected, broken IT, etc...). Or maybe he needs training. It is fair to fire him without trying to understand?

Unfortunately, one possibility is dishonesty, as it is the case for your employee. And that's when surveillance comes in. You can flip the argument of "accept monitoring or get fired" around in favor of the employee as in "you are doing a poor job, normally we would fire you for that, but it may not be your fault, so if you allow us to make sure of that (by monitoring), we will try to find another solution".

Of course, it can and is often abused, but it is not black and white.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @07:02AM (#26805404)
> You can flip the argument of "accept monitoring or get fired" around in favor of the employee as in "you are doing a poor job, normally we would fire you for that, but it may not be your fault, so if you allow us to make sure of that (by monitoring), we will try to find another solution".

An interesting parallel to ankle bracelets (also mentioned in the article). As a form of punishment, it's the justice system's way of saying, "you're doing a very poor job as a citizen, but we don't think it would be fair to put you in prison for it, so if you allow us, we'll impose some lesser restrictions and monitor your adherence, to make it easier for you to improve your behavior".

No country on the planet forces everyone to wear ankle bracelets by default.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by krisdol on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:31AM (#26805165)
He’s not performing well at work and you found out without any extra surveillance. I mean you didn’t even need to find his freelance gig, it seems irrelevant to what you should do.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by nabla9 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:33AM (#26805185)
Does he still get his work done? Not far behind others?

Maybe you pay him too little.

Maybe you should offer him additional contract pay. More he does, more he gets paid.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by Gregoriy on Friday April 16, 2021 @06:32AM (#26832094)
We do not underpay anyone and have really transparent salary policy, at the end i talked to him and he just wanted to have double pay, but not able to fit two job into the schedule. I can find a solution which satisfy everyone in most cases, but i need to know in advance all the information, i have discovered in the worst possible way here.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by rambambram on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:31AM (#26805162)
Exactly how you already did that. IANAL (although I studied law), but my take is you have proof for a case here.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by cyberlurker on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:33AM (#26805184)
Does he get his work done? Is he providing value? If yes, don’t worry about it.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by wdb on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @12:56PM (#26809786)
Or the employee does this work in its own time. Assuming he is employed full time.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by loloquwowndueo on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:31AM (#26805163)
Fire him? :P
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by Gregoriy on Friday April 16, 2021 @06:36AM (#26832120)
I see it as a fail at both sides, i mean we could find a solution before that last measure
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by trident5000 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:06AM (#26804650)
What does blockchain have to do with literally anything pertaining to this article.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by mustafa_pasi on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:46AM (#26804876)
The whole crypto space is about replacing trust-based systems with trust-less systems.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by trident5000 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:49AM (#26804895)
Who cares? Completing a trustless transaction is not parallel to someone tracking your physical location.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:39AM (#26805233)
Look past the surface of Bitcoin payments, and at the greater space of technologies around blockchains and cryptocurrencies.

The core idea they are all based on is that you can provide mathematically provable distributed consensus if you're willing to jump through enough hoops. That you can build systems that can achieve and enforce agreements without any need to trust the participants. All you need is to trade enough electricity for it. And so the whole crypto space is currently trying to refactor every single aspect of our society to eliminate the need for trusting other people.

The problem is, they're looking at it from the wrong end. The right way of looking at it is, interpersonal trust is a huge performance optimization. It's what allows societies to exist and cooperate without jumping through hoops or burning more electricity than a developed country just to send small amounts of money around.

What the crypto space is explicitly trying to do is to eliminate the most important feature of our civilization.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by throwaway29303 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:09AM (#26804668)
I think they're referring to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26802874
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by trident5000 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:44AM (#26804866)
Btc is a store of value more than a payment rail and others like monero or even the lightning network can be anonymous.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by throwaway29303 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:06AM (#26804653)
You're right but ironically the very same people that are now complaining about these measures were the same that enabled it in the first place. All for the sake of convenience. Pandora's jar was opened and there's really no way in sight to put its filth back and close it for good. And one of the worst parts is when this information can be used by people (nations, criminals, etc) for any reason.
Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by extradesgo on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:45AM (#26804874)
>”the very same people that are now complaining about these measures were the same that enabled it in the first place”

Wage workers? No. That’s just false. I don’t know what exactly you’re trying to say but it’s wrong. This is just another appearance of the same class warfare that drives slavery. Working people didn’t ask for this any more than slaves asked for slavery.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by throwaway29303 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @07:02AM (#26805402)
You're not seeing the full picture. People chose to use products and/or services which collect behavioural information for advertising purposes (or put it simply $ for data). This wanting to install tracking software on a personal device is a side-effect of this data collection mentality.

Maybe it'll come crashing down - this whole concept of $ for data - some day, but until then you'll see all of these abuses. And again it's sad how conspiracy theorists were mocked at for this exact hellish scenario. Either people start demanding for something different or the abuse will not stop.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by goatinaboat on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:01AM (#26804955)
Wage workers? No. That’s just false. I don’t know what exactly you’re trying to say but it’s wrong. This is just another appearance of the same class warfare that drives slavery. Working people didn’t ask for this any more than slaves asked for slavery.

I remember, because it was only a few years ago, companies would allocate anyone who needed one a BlackBerry. Any work calls would come to that device, you would use it for emails on the go etc, it was managed by the corporate IT department and when you weren't on call you could leave it in a drawer. It was very clearly "theirs" and could be treated as such.

It actually was ordinary workers who said, hey, I would much prefer to have the company take over my own personal device for this, which I have paid for and pay all the bills for too, it would be soooo convenient not to carry two phones, and of course companies gleefully said yes.

And nowadays if you want a "burner phone" for use at work, you pay for that yourself too! Congratulations everyone, we played ourselves. Well not me, I miss the BlackBerry days, and I said all this when BYOD was becoming fashionable too. But they still took my BlackBerry away and made it all but impossible to stay employed and not install their MDM crap on my own phone.

Re:Employee refuses to download app that monitors location, ... by pydry on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:10AM (#26805013)
>It actually was ordinary workers who said, hey, I would much prefer to have the company take over my own personal device for this

Don't remember this. I remember the opposite.