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Re:Just Be Rich by dougmwne on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @11:39AM (#26793818)
> If 90% of the population had a (sustainable) lifestyle of current dollar millionaires, and the remaining 10% had a (sustainable) lifestyle of dollar billionaires, there would be lots of inequality, but it wouldn't be problematic.

I strongly disagree with this and I think it runs counter to human nature. You're looking at quality of life as if there were some kind of absolute measure of it, but it really doesn't work like that. Quality of life is always measured relative to the people around us or to whom we are exposed in media or social media.

If you look at modern Americans they have fabulously lavish quality of life in comparison to 19th century factory workers or 11th century peasants. Even people in the poorest quintile have access to safety, food, housing and entertainment that would have made people from centuries past gasp in awe. Antibiotics! Virtual reality! Same day shipping!

But what really counts is how we perceive we are doing versus people we can compare ourselves to. That's where the suffering comes from. You have running hot water but your neighbor has a spa tub. You have the iPhone 6 but a friend just got the 12. You have a safe job that pays your bills but a classmate vacations in Portugal. I've been in other countries where the average quality of life was much lower than the US, and no one knew the difference or had any shame or sadness in their smaller cars, smaller bathrooms or lower square footage.

If there were trillionaires but they all lived on Mars or some faraway continent and we knew nothing about them then they wouldn't cause us social suffering.

Re:Just Be Rich by ElijahLynn on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:34PM (#26798887)
What you describe seems to be term called "relative poverty" which is contrastable with "absolute poverty", which I just learned about recently.

What I read recently made the case for "relative poverty" being more psychologically damaging than "absolute poverty". e.g. if everyone one in your society is the same poor then it isn't as bad as being poor in a society of wealth. This made a lot of sense to me as I tasted relative poverty a few times, and there seemed to be a feeling of shame around it. Not that anyone tried to shame the (relatively) poor but it just felt shameful. I never wanted to invite my millionaire family classmates over to my tiny, run down house for example, as it was too embarrassing. I eventually moved back to a place where we had similar levels of income and there was only a single millionaire and it felt a lot better.

Re:Just Be Rich by soheyl on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:38PM (#26797936)
But is it really "human nature"? Go back a few centuries, and everything belonged to a monarchy, and by everything, I mean even your life and your family. Were people unhappy "because of it"? For the vast majority of humans, I doubt it. They had just learned not to compare themselves with the king.

For something to be human nature, I think it needs more time. And if peasants knew that comparing themselves to the king just does not make sense, maybe we can learn to have the same attitude towards Jeff Bezos.

Re:Just Be Rich by astan on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @12:14AM (#26802865)
Nice response. Part of the problem is "pull yourself up by bootstraps" PG-tier p0rn. With a king, an average person isn't being told everyday that they too can become a king, if only they worked harder. With people like startup founders, VCs, Musk, Bezos and the like, constantly writing articles on how you too can become rich like them: http://paulgraham.com/richnow.html, average people view this life as achievable and it harbors disappointment and insecurity to not achieve those levels.
Re:Just Be Rich by soheyl on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @01:14AM (#26803185)
Absolutely. I think (hope) that what PG meant in that essay is that the rich people today get there by displaying more "sportsmanship" than 200 years ago. And I generally agree with that. And I think if you compare Bezos and Musk with whoever would rank similarly to them on Forbes list in 1821, you would agree too. But it absolutely does not mean that anyone can get there.

The fact that Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt have won so many medals without (hopefully) juicing or bribing officials is great, and maybe even a cause for celebration for the human race, but it absolutely does not mean that anyone can do those things.

Re:Just Be Rich by robocat on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:31PM (#26813914)
I think using sporting analogies often fail because sports are zero-sum games (only one winner), whereas more than one person can win playing business, and transactions where both sides win are common in non-sporting contexts.
Re:Just Be Rich by amelius on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @07:48AM (#26805753)
> The fact that Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt have won so many medals without (hopefully) juicing or bribing officials is great, and maybe even a cause for celebration for the human race, but it absolutely does not mean that anyone can do those things.

But if significantly more people tried to do those things, I'm sure some of them would beat those champions.

Re:Just Be Rich by dougmwne on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:47PM (#26798094)
I would guide the comparison to the people closest to you, peers, bosses, schoolmates, people whose pet pictures you look at on Facebook. If those people are doing a lot better than you then it can cause some seriously negative emotions. I think the negative impact of social media is that we would have been previously unaware of the lives of more distantly related social connections such as old school friends or coworkers we'd fallen out of touch with and would only have people from our own family and town to compare with. Now you can see that Jimmy just got promoted at Google and took his last vacation to Nepal and you know for sure you've fallen behind on the hedonic treadmill.
Re:Just Be Rich by soheyl on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:30PM (#26798824)
Agreed. The focus of the original article was the widening gap between the top 1% (or 5, or 10) and the rest of the population. I doubt that it will cause "unhappiness". Unhappiness exists when you compare yourself with people within your percentiles (+- 5%).

A plumber in West Virginia is not unhappy because Bezos is so rich. He is unhappy because his welder brother-in-law just got paid after a better paying contract job (or is heavily in debt) and bought a used Audi.

Re:Just Be Rich by anthony_barker on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @06:01AM (#26804960)
And go back to most of human existence as hunter gatherers humans were very equal. 10,000 years ago the new technology called Agriculture changed this.

Technology has generally always created inequality.

Re:Just Be Rich by esyir on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @11:45AM (#26793940)
Basically, crab in pot. Fuck having overall better conditions, I'm screwing myself over if it means I can be king of the dirt mound.
Re:Just Be Rich by llamataboot on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:07PM (#26796545)
No, not at all. Read The Spirit Level and also a bunch of happiness psychology. Relative equality and perception of fairness matter quite a lot to humans.
Re:Just Be Rich by esyir on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @01:32AM (#26803276)
I'm fully aware of that. I also think it's something unfortunate that we have to figure out a way to route around.

We should choose a system that gives one guy a billion dollars and everyone else a million, if the alternative is one that gives everyone 100k.

This is an analogy for lifestyle, the actual implications of supply demand are being ignored here.

Re:Just Be Rich by bko on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:15PM (#26794564)
> I strongly disagree with this and I think it runs counter to human nature. You're looking at quality of life as if there were some kind of absolute measure of it, but it really doesn't work like that. Quality of life is always measured relative to the people around us or to whom we are exposed in media or social media.

If you're looking for validation and happiness based on what you see in social media, quality of life is the least of your concerns.

Instead of accepting this as a matter of fact, why don't you look inward at the culture and ask yourself if this is a productive attitude to have, rather than trying to coerce the world to fit your view on human nature.

Re:Just Be Rich by stjohnswarts on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:42PM (#26798981)
Because when you say "oh I'm happy with Bezos and Zuck having over 100 billion when I'm lucky to put food in my kid's mouths" you are going to revert back to the monarchy, we need to continue to fight these people who think that the rich should continue to trample the poor, especially the really poor of the world. I have no problem with an upper crust, but currently we're moving back to just a few people controlling the world, politics, and freedom.
Re:Just Be Rich by dougmwne on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:26PM (#26794806)
If human nature wasn't greedy, vain and materialistic, the modern economy would not exist.
Re:Just Be Rich by soganess on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:50PM (#26798152)
And if pithy comments didn't exist... we'ed have to accept that no single thing, or small cohort of factors decided the overall trajectory of society.

Wealth, and power carry a social momentum. Antipodal to that is the high amount of frictional cost associated with change at scale. Those properties of our current economy effect what change is possible and when.

The modern economy exists in this unequal hodgepodge for the same reason some animal look alien to you, because it was not planned. Unfortunately for us, unlike animal evolution, the rate of change of the economy, tech progress, political winds, and all the social tendrils that stem from that unholy amalgam grow rapidly and defy organization.

You can call it the expected end result of human nature if it eases you. But. to me, it looks like a problem looking for some good engineering.

Re:Just Be Rich by Z0rr0 on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @05:33AM (#26804795)
Are you arguing that if we take away the bad parts of human nature, the economy would collapse? What useful function does greed, vanity, and materialism serve in the modern economy?
Re:Just Be Rich by dougmwne on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @04:33PM (#26812664)
I am arguing the economy would change and probably look nothing like it does now. Market economies basically have taken the "bad" aspects of human nature and use them to drive price discovery, demand creation, and efficiency gains. There would be other ways to do these things, but working within the bounds of normal human behavior has it's advantages. The economy can function on "whatever works" not just our better angels.
Re:Just Be Rich by solipsism on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:31PM (#26796871)
You've made the case that what you call "social suffering" exists, but you haven't made the case that we should care about it. There are people struggling to survive, even in a country like the US. We have people dying in hospitals at differential rates based on their poverty level.

One sweet day when everyone is guaranteed the most basic of human necessities, maybe then we'll start caring about the anxiety a (small-minded) percentage of us feel when our neighbor has two Teslas and we only have a Leaf.

Re:Just Be Rich by dougmwne on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:17PM (#26797601)
In a democracy the concerns of everyone are brought to the table, both the starving and the well fed.
Re:Just Be Rich by stjohnswarts on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:44PM (#26799010)
Well I'd say the well fed are getting 90% of the food while they are only 1% of the table
Re:Just Be Rich by mariksolo on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @11:53AM (#26794075)
It sounds to me like you do agree with them. The OP wasn't saying Americans feel wealthier, but rather that the quality of life relative to the past is higher.
Re:Just Be Rich by leinadho on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:04PM (#26794306)
Could it not be people's own responsibility to practice managing their perception of what they do have? This might be a more pragmatic solution for reducing social suffering, and I've found that you can learn to let material things have less importance in your life. Caveat: this is coming from someone in a relatively well-off country with decent welfare
Re:Just Be Rich by dougmwne on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:24PM (#26794744)
A person can be mindful and minimalist, people will be Moloch. Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone.
Re:Just Be Rich by leinadho on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:42PM (#26795095)
Interesting word, Moloch, thanks for introducing me to it!
Re:Just Be Rich by dougmwne on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:49PM (#26795198)
Then all credit goes to Ginsberg: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl