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Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by paxys on Monday April 12, 2021 @10:17PM (#26787481)
To me this is a very intuitive presentation of pricing, so not sure what you are referring to as a dark pattern. There are three clearly laid-out options:

1. No contract, pay monthly

2. Annual contract, pay monthly (cheaper than 1)

3. Annual contract, pay in one go (cheaper than 1 & 2)

You pick one of the three options and check out. Where exactly is the confusion?

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by deathanatos on Monday April 12, 2021 @10:50PM (#26787647)
The first screenshot in the comment you're replying to says the price is "$52.99/mo". A reasonable person would look at that and conclude that if they purchased the product for 1 month, they would pay $52.99. But it seems (from the other, subsequent screenshots) that the actual cost Adobe would charge is $635.88. (That $52.99/mo, for a year.)

It is only on subsequent screens that the bait and switch becomes visible. A customer should not have to pay attention at each screen to ensure such a bait and switch does not occur.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by sk5t on Monday April 12, 2021 @11:20PM (#26787786)
Automobile leases, apartments, and the like are listed with monthly rates, but your commitment to pay is longer than one month. What's the difference?
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by Mandatum on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:13AM (#26788060)
Here in Australia you need to list the minimum contract term too. So if you're listing for $x/mo but require 1 year lease - the listing will say 1 year lease (unless it's been data-scraped by a Real Estate website and relisted for referral fees, but they end up in trouble all the time for this).

Phone plans for instance will have monthly with "minimum amount owed" underneath so even phone plans advertised for $20/mo will say something like "minimum owed $720" because people kept advertising shady 3-year contract plans with steep cancellation fees.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by mitchdoogle on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @01:23AM (#26788391)
An apartment (at least in the US) is well understood to be a yearly lease. Software purchasing not. Similar software may be priced monthly, annually, everything upfront, or even free. If you put a price and list it as monthly and neglect to mention anywhere that it requires a year agreement, then it's an obvious dark pattern. You know it is because they easily could add "annual contract required" underneath, like most others do when they show annual pricing as a monthly rate (IME).
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by stuaxo on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:23AM (#26790761)
In other countries you don't need the "well understood" part, it's all up front info.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by dunnevens on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:01AM (#26788013)
When you lease an apartment or a car, the monthly rate stated is usually the actual month-to-month cost. They don't demand a full year in advance to get the stated cost, or increase the monthly cost because you didn't pay for a year upfront.

That's why this pricing feels dishonest, even if it's technically true. Other companies handle it much more fairly. If you want to subscribe to World of Warcraft, Blizzard makes it clear that it's $15 per month. With discounts offered if you pay for 6 months at a time. That type of pricing feels honest, with a reward for paying for multiple months. Makes the customer feel better than Adobe's presentation, even though it's essentially the same type of pricing scheme as Adobe.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by d110af5ccf on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:47AM (#26788222)
> They don't demand a full year in advance to get the stated cost, or increase the monthly cost because you didn't pay for a year upfront.

In my experience, typical apartment leases are offered on a 12 month basis. Month to month is usually substantially more expensive.

If you break a 12 month lease early, you're legally on the hook for whatever the contract specifies (typically the entire year in my experience). Most landlords will "generously" agree to let you out of the lease for the equivalent of a couple monthly installments though (again, just my personal experience).

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by brailsafe on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:07AM (#26789005)
I've personally never heard of a case where you'd pay out the year's lease. Usually you just forfeit a portion of your deposit, which half a month's rent or so, in Canada at least.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by kingaillas on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @10:56AM (#26793029)
I had that once, in an apartment I rented in the US (TX). If you broke the lease early, you were on the hook for the remainder of the lease, UNTIL the apartment was rented again. This was called "rent acceleration" as I remember it. This was also ~25 years ago so maybe it is different now, but it definitely existed and I was subject to it.

At the time I bought a house so I broke the lease to move in. Fortunately, the apartment rented within the month so I didn't owe additional fees.

Out of curiosity I googled "rent acceleration" and see it is a hot topic now - mostly with commercial real estate and businesses break their leases due to the impact of covid on them. See https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/what-landlords-need-to-kno... for a summary. Also interesting is some US states make residential leases exempt from rent acceleration.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by d110af5ccf on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:47AM (#26789297)
I think that's the typical outcome in the end. I've never actually heard of anyone being charged the full amount (not that I would have any way of knowing though). Also sometimes local law will place an upper limit on the size of the fee.

Several of my past leases specified that if broken I would be responsible for monthly rent on a prorated basis until a new tenant moved in.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by brailsafe on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @08:37AM (#26791359)
In my current province, it's regulated that after the first year's lease is up, it defaults on an ongoing basis to a month-to-month agreement, whereby only a month's notice is required and that's it, unless you explicitly agree to another term lease. That's what I'm on now. Our deposit is the regulated max of half a month's rent.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by isbvhodnvemrwvn on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @03:00PM (#26811514)
In Poland if you signed a contract for a set period of time and there is no clause about breaking the contract early, you are on the hook for the entire duration of the contract.

For rent specifically, you can arrange to have a mutual agreement with the landlord if you for example find a new tenant, but by law the landlord does not have to accept anything.

Some contract also have punitive clauses in it, saying that you can break the contract at any point with 1 months notice, but you have to pay 3 months' worth of rent.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by morsch on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @01:19AM (#26788364)
Wow, I'm glad this isn't how it works where I live.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by RC_ITR on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:11AM (#26788050)
Ummm, leases definitely have variable terms depending on length and also have fees for exiting the contract early.

And even more so, I bet if you asked, they would give you a further discount for upfront payment (since it removes non-payment and early cancellation risk that’s priced in)

I guess I’m just unclear what you’re on about?

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by DavidPeiffer on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:53AM (#26790981)
>And even more so, I bet if you asked, they would give you a further discount for upfront payment (since it removes non-payment and early cancellation risk that’s priced in)

Not a lawyer, but come from a family of bankruptcy lawyers. If your landlord went bankrupt after you pre-paid, it could get dicey. It's a risk, and probably a low probability of downside, but I encourage people to do more research if interested.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by chillfox on Monday April 12, 2021 @11:28PM (#26787832)
Mobile phone plans and car payments all display the total price here in Australia as well as the monthly payments.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by powersnail on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:42AM (#26789692)
I’ve never been in a lease where it would cost a whole year worth of rent to quit early. It just cost the deposit, which is usually 1 or 2 months worth of rent.

And this is understandable for renting an apartment. The landlord might not be able to find a suitable replacement immediately. The same logic doesn’t apply to Adobe.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by sellyme on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:17AM (#26788684)
> Automobile leases, apartments, and the like are listed with monthly rates

Where I live it it is illegal to display this without also including the total amount over the entire contract period.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by tremon on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @06:39AM (#26790439)
It's not about the commitment, but the installments. Advertising "$52.99/mo" implies your will be paying exactly that amount, each month. But in reality, there is no option to pay $52.99 each month, you only have to option to pay $635.88 in one lump sum, or pay $79.49 each month.

That's scummy, and trying to apologize for such behaviour is scummy too.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by craftinator on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @01:35AM (#26788449)
Yeah, the US has become quite comfortable with disgusting advertising problems. It's normal to be a shady disingenuous company here, so what's the difference if Adobe is being shady and disingenuous too?
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by wlesieutre on Monday April 12, 2021 @10:38PM (#26787579)
The dark pattern is the first page pretending it’s a $52/month rate when the actual monthly rate is priced much higher.

If they want to honestly advertise that price then it needs to say “billed monthly with annual contract.”

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by usrusr on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:52AM (#26789340)
Or a minimum head-up time for cancellations that's not bound to some full year cycle. There are many established ways of adding friction to cancellations that wouldn't cause any outrage at all.

But if those ways weren't good enough for Adobe and they wanted to have it both ways, advertise "cancel any time" and but still have "(you can do that, but then you have to pay in advance for the remainder of the year to do so)" or something like that in the fine print then they deserve all the hatred. And maybe even lawsuits for deliberately misleading labeling, but they probably have a legal team tweaking that communication in each jurisdiction to the exact shade of dark grey containing enough white for discouraging lawsuits.

And I suspect that the pattern/scheme doesn't pay for itself at all, that it's just the unfortunate outcome of a bad compromise between one group in the company advocating for honest monthly and another group advocating for honest annual.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by syntactic-sugar on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @01:50AM (#26788517)
Absolutely. It's not a $52/month rate because it's not 52 dollars per month. The moment you click that buy button you're on the hook for $624.

IMO A less deceptive label would be $624, billed in monthly installments.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by tolbish on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:09AM (#26789013)
"Twelve easy payments"
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by Mandatum on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:38AM (#26788176)
It's only clear in 1 of the pictures I shared. That is on the "Plans and Details" page.

It's "clear enough" in the other. That is on the Buy Now page. The price is listed as annualized and the REAL monthly price is hidden from view under a drop-down. This is an acceptably deceptive UX practice for pricing. I can give some room for shitty tactics, this is it.

However - it's not clear at all in the first picture I shared. This is the first page and the main page people will see when deciding which product to purchase. This is the main one I have a problem with. If they said it was an annual price, that would be acceptable. But they don't.

They lie.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by dmingod666 on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:07AM (#26788614)
How deceptive is it from 1-10, if the name of the product starts with the word "Annual".
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by renewiltord on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:15AM (#26788659)
It doesn't on the first page so that's a 9 and it does on the second page after click through so that's a 1.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by dmingod666 on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:34AM (#26788796)
Agree
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by crossroadsguy on Monday April 12, 2021 @10:31PM (#26787548)
That's exactly the dark pattern is - the convoluted pricing and terms. Also, not everybody is a uckin lawyer, that's another problem.

The customer has already been paying more than they'd have paid if they went for a long duration contract.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by paxys on Monday April 12, 2021 @10:36PM (#26787572)
You are stretching the definition of convoluted. Offering discounts for signing a longer-term contract is standard practice in every industry. Don't need to be a lawyer to figure that out.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by p1necone on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:54AM (#26788241)
That's not what they're doing though - they're advertising a monthly price with no mention that it's actually a discounted price only available if you sign up for > 1 month.

Only explaining that in fine print once you get further along in the sign up process is the convoluted/dark pattern bit here.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by michaelmrose on Monday April 12, 2021 @11:33PM (#26787860)
There is no reason to give billion dollar companies with a staff of thousands of full time workers which have meetings in which professional designers meet with professional decision makers to approve of each step in a web store before it goes live the benefit of the doubt instead of the customer who spends 2 minutes in a web form.

If it looks dishonest it probably is. On this page https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html I see an entry for all apps. The description is like so.

All Apps

US$52.99/mo

It has a big old buy now option that you are obviously supposed to click in place of the small text that says see plan and pricing details.

When you click buy now you are taken to what ought to be familiar to most people as a shopping cart pattern. On the entire left side is just a spot to put your email and a button designed to draw your attention below it that says continue to payment. Most people are going to read it from top down and not glance much at the item they have put in their cart.

If they do they may notice a drop down in the description of the item in their cart with black on grey text that says annual plan, paid monthly in the description of the item you are already buying where people are much less likely to attend to this detail.

If they click the drop down they may note the options but more likely we are already passed this screen and onto the next one.

If you put a nonsense email in and click proceed to payment you will notice, you know or not, text in 6 point font at the bottom.

In light text that on a 24" 1080p screen is 9 pixels high or about 0.098 inches tall

> By clicking "Agree and subscribe," you agree

In bold same size it says

> You will be charged US$52.99 (plus tax) monthly and at the end of your one-year term, your subscription will automatically renew monthly until you cancel (price subject to change). No annual commitment required after the first year. Cancel anytime via Adobe Account or Customer Support.

Now again in light text it says

> Cancel before Apr 26, 2021 to get a full refund and avoid a fee

If you had no economic interest and your job was to be as informative as possible you would allow the user to click the product which would take you to a product page wherein it would list 3 options with separate descriptions where you would add the desired item to the cart. This means that you would affirmatively choose that option instead of having the default in a drop down positioned so many wouldn't attend to it at all and you wouldn't mention the fee in tiny font on the payment screen. It would be fully specified in body text with a check box saying something to the effect. I acknowledge that if I cancel before the one year term I will be charged a fee of up to n dollars. If you check it you would be able to add the item to your cart and pay for it secure in that everyone knew what they are buying.

It doesn't work like this because deceiving people is good for business.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by bredren on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @12:25AM (#26788120)
> It doesn't work like this because deceiving people is good for business.

I think it is a bit more nuanced than that. Business isn’t purely about making money, it is about exchange of value.

It doesn’t work like that because people don’t think Adobe products provide the value Adobe wants to charge for.

If adobe credibly believed that their annual plan for their products was worth what they’re charging, they would not hide the pricing.

So “it doesn’t work like this because deceiving people is good for” _accumulating capital_.

This is happening a lot.

The Burning Man organization used a dark pattern to attempt to withhold ticket refunds last year.

The burning man org made refunds something you had to request, then sign in, and opt out again in or lose all of it.

They increased the minimum amount you could donate during the refund period and said the money was to “save” the event.

Then they turned around and applied for the max PPP loans. [1] https://www.burn.life/blog/interview-with-the-ceo-of-burning...

WinRed, a political organization in support of the former president, used a series of increasingly deceptive interface patterns that have provably awful publicly disclosed refund rates. They also used increasingly deceptive interface methods and emotional statements to sell the idea. [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donatio...

If anything Adobe should be regarded for only using deceptive financial practices and not trying to sell some sad story if we don’t give it to them.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by DominikPeters on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @01:13AM (#26788326)
Even if you bother to read the small print, it appears to be written to be deliberately misleading. Instead of positively saying that one enters an annual commitment, it only says that there is "No annual commitment required after the first year". "Cancel anytime" suggests you can stop your contract, not that you have the option to pre-pay the remaining months and forfeit your access.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by dmingod666 on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:17AM (#26788676)
Correct, it's misleading if you chose to ignore the words "after the first year".
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by shawnz on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:13AM (#26790677)
If four words alone can change the entire meaning then I would say that is likely to mislead people.

I am sure you can agree they didn't do their best in making the nature of the contract as clear as possible here.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by DominikPeters on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @07:14PM (#26800722)
“No annual commitment required after the first year” does not logically imply that there is such a commitment for the first year.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by dmingod666 on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @02:14AM (#26788656)
If you can proceed to buy something and not even bother to read the first word of the product name, which is "Annual" -- you can't claim to be cheated.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by csunbird on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:15AM (#26789906)
But, it also says "Cancel anytime", then turns around and asks you to cancel 1 month before renewal.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by dheera on Monday April 12, 2021 @11:21PM (#26787794)
It doesn't say ANYWHERE near the $52.99/mo that it's for a 1-year commitment.

It should be clearly stated next to that, and not in fine print or faded text or buried in a ToS.

False advertising at best.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by chillfox on Monday April 12, 2021 @11:27PM (#26787820)
I think they have to display the total price for the contract here in Australia, not just the monthly payments.
Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by coldtea on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @05:22AM (#26789959)
The dark pattern is that "pay monthly" is just an installment option for the annual contract.

It's not a subscription per month, and it's not marked as such.

Re:Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee by 8note on Monday April 12, 2021 @11:25PM (#26787817)
I'd expect it to be different if I've already spent a year in or not.

Cancellation periods can be random and unattached to when you actually stopped using a service.