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Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by dagw on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:12PM (#26731381)
The significant difference is I (assume) no one depended on your forum for earning a significant part of their income. Once you set yourself as a place where you want people come and earn money, then banning them, and thus depriving them of something of real monetary value, takes on and entire different set of nuances.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by dkarras on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:01PM (#26731971)
I don't think there really are "nuances" about what the owners can and cannot legally do. There are nuances about the decisions about people that are willing to participate in the website however.

Say I own twitch, can't I just shut it down? Maybe I mismanaged it, maybe it isn't profitable, maybe it isn't profitable enough to make it worth the trouble, maybe I want to make a statement, maybe I am bored, maybe I am sick. The point is the effect on the users would be the same. If you can't make it illegal for me to shut it down (on the premises that it would risk my users' livelihood) then you can't make it illegal for me to kick users out (on the same premise). So yes, people depending on MY service to earn a living has a lot of thinking and diversifying to do, it is not as risk-free as it seems, and there are nuances around that. In the end though, the owner(s) do and should have the last word.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by stale2002 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:34PM (#26732368)
> If you can't make it illegal for me to shut it down (on the premises that it would risk my users' livelihood) then you can't make it illegal for me to kick users out (on the same premise)

> In the end though, the owner(s) do and should have the last word.

Thats not exactly true. A relevant counter example would be to look at other major communication services. For example, take telecom. A telephone company cannot just kick users off of the platform, for any reason. They have to follow common carrier laws.

Obviously, the law would have to be changed, in order for these laws to apply to these new platforms.

But, unrelated to any specific moderation policy, I think that there is a very nuanced and interesting discussion to be had, about how common carrier laws have not really kept up to date with some of the many new internet platforms these days.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by shadowfox on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:27PM (#26731595)
How different is that from at-will employment though? You can be fired at any time and for more or less any non-federally-protected reason (and can quit any time too). That seems pretty uncontroversial in the US at least.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by enjoythecode on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:44PM (#26731763)
There are thousands of other employers you can apply to and work for. You'll be unemployed in the short term, but getting fired isn't catastrophic long-term, for the most part.

The parallel doesn't really exist for Twitch. Other than perhaps YouTube, are there any platforms that would get you anywhere close to the pool of potential users on Twitch?

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:55PM (#26731896)
It's a good thing that there are 10.75 million employers in the United States.

It has a little something for everyone.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by madeofpalk on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:31PM (#26732330)
Twitch has reasonable competition - YouTube and to a significantly lesser extent Facebook Gaming.

But let’s take a step back here - no one is entitled to be a Full time professional streamer. Say you do something egregious (or not) and get banned from all streaming sites - just go get another job? Twitch doesn’t have a monopoly on employment.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by devit on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:40PM (#26731720)
In most cases there are multiple employers for any job who pay similar wages so one can go work for some other employer if one fires them.

But in the Twitch, YouTube, Amazon, etc. cases there is no other platform that pays the same.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:50PM (#26731833)
But in the Twitch, YouTube, Amazon, etc. cases there is no other platform that pays the same.

Did you not just enumerate 3 different organizations in your comment?

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by gh-throw on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:56PM (#26731905)
For three different “jobs”, though.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:58PM (#26731935)
I don't know man?

Do "Twitch Streamer" and "YouTube Streamer" really constitute different "jobs"?

(I mean, to the extent that they are "jobs" at all, I consider them the same "job".)

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by gh-throw on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:07PM (#26732044)
Amazon: author

YouTube: Youtuber

Twitch (as discussed elsewhere in the thread): eSports tournament competitors

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by otterley on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:24PM (#26731546)
Building your business on someone else's property subjects you to a material risk that the owner may someday kick you out. Being a responsible business owner means you recognize that risk and mitigate it as needed for business continuity, and have contingency plans in the event that it happens.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by xyzzy_plugh on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:29PM (#26731623)
Sure, but the more important factor in these sorts of relationships is that there is in fact usually a binding contract. Twitch refers to these as "Partners" who they have extended a contract to. While I am sure Twitch has the ability to sever that contract essentially at will, it doesn't mean they are exempt from legal repercussions of doing so.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by beaconstudios on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:08PM (#26732056)
I believe there's precedent for them severing a massive partner at will, in the case of Dr Disrespect.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by xyzzy_plugh on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:19PM (#26732211)
Yes, but it's always always better to have a policy in place than to make one-off decisions.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by otterley on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:20PM (#26733940)
This isn't always feasible or practical. People can't always foresee the future (otherwise gambling wouldn't be a thing). So we can't assume that a policy can cover every possible scenario that might occur. Things happen that practically nobody thought might happen. This is why "escape hatch" clauses were invented--to give parties a way out in the event that the unforeseen occurs.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by beaconstudios on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:45AM (#26737586)
I think the idea is what once the unforseen does happen, that you encode the decision you made into the rules.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by beaconstudios on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:40PM (#26732436)
Yeah that would be better, people should be able to know in advance what they're not allowed to do. I was just pointing out that they've done it before.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by ccn0p on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:27PM (#26731594)
kind of agree with this statement in a free market sense, but the problem with these winner-take-most markets is there are often no reasonable alternatives.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by bilbo0s on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:47PM (#26731792)
I'm struggling to understand both sides of this argument, so I need help grokking all these positions. I need more information before I know if I can support your position.

If I work for a large company, and I go out and do something that may not even be all that bad. Say, publicly berating an Uber driver like that woman doctor in Miami, my organization will fire me. Just as her organization fired her. Especially if people start publicly connecting me to them. This has happened forever, no internet need be involved.

The difference here, at least one side claims, is that the large organization paying your living exists on the internet, and so should be viewed differently than any other large organization. Since those other large organizations are not internet-based? I find myself unpersuaded though, I'm honestly not really seeing much of a difference.

So just so I understand what you're saying, is your position that no large organization should be able to separate themselves from that lady doctor in Miami for instance? Or is your position that only large internet-based organizations should be precluded from separating themselves from her?

(Dr in Miami that berated the Uber driver is just the most analogous offline example I could think of. Large organization with enormous market power paying her living. They fire her, no one else will touch her. I'm sure there are many many more.)

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by anigbrowl on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:46PM (#26731786)
But nobody owes you a market stall. And if you do have one, then you have to balance your business witht he extracurricular activities. If the latter gets you in trouble or attracts sufficient attention that it reflects poorly on your industry, your brand might suffer and other industry participants will do whatever they need to avoid contagion.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by koluna on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @06:44PM (#26732486)
So just like at will employment then? Anyone can fire you for wearing a shirt they didn’t like that day - this is your problem, not theirs.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by andrepd on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @07:19PM (#26732891)
Absolutely. Platforms like Twitch, Facebook, Twitter, or other giants, reap enormous benefits from being a "platform" which contains the majority (or a huge chunk) of the sectors they play in. It's time they also pay their due price for the benefits they reap.